Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1

From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:43:00 2003

>From: Joe <[email-masked]>
>
>>>From: "Ethan Dicks" <[email-masked]>
>>>
>>>--- "Dwight K. Elvey" <[email-masked]> wrote:
>>>> Hi
>>>>  An interesting side note. The power steering of your
>>>> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier.
>>>> Dwight
>>>
>>>I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that.  :-)
>
>   Do you mean that it doesn't have hydraulic brakes? :-) I expect that the 
vacuum advance on the distributor would also qualify.
>   Joe

Hi
 Hydraulic brakes don't amplify unless they use a booster.
It is true that most drum brakes amplify when stopping while
moving forward.
 Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance.
I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).
 Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements.
Dwight

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:52:01 2003

> I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).

Depends on the exact model and year.  Many do; some do not.

>  Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements.

The carburetor is full of them.  EFI (Bosch Electronic Fuel Injection)
was available on "Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late
1960s, then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones).  It's
clearly an analog computer with a network of sensors, comparators
and actuators.  There's even instructions floating around on how to
do component-level diagnosis.

-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:53:01 2003

> I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).

All VWs in 1968 left the factory with a vacuum advance.  But it was not at
all uncommon in performance modifications to replace it with a purely
mechanical advance distributor (either aftermarket, or from a much earlier
model, such as the Botch 019)

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:11:01 2003

> 1960s, 
That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) starting in 1968
(U.S. models; slightly different introduction years elsewhere).

The "Type IVs" would also qualify, but not until early 1970s.

> then later on MicroBuses (like my 1975 and 1976 ones).  It's

They were fun.
A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection on 2180 engines (the
largest that you could expand the 1600 engine without significant
machining) in his early 60s VW buses.  He was able to trick the computer
into handling the larger displacement properly by messing with some of the
inputs (particularly the head temperature sender)

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:13:00 2003

> Hydraulic brakes don't amplify unless they use a booster.

   Not so. They amplify the force (not the energy).

>It is true that most drum brakes amplify when stopping while

   True but that's not a fluid system, it's a mechanical system.

> Many cars of this time frame may not have a vacuum advance.

   Many??  I'm not buying it! Show me a stock car of that vintage that doesn't use a vacuum advance. The only ones that I know of that were even close to that vintage that don't have vacuum advances were the '64-'65 Chryslers with the 426 RACE Hemi engine (the later street Hemis did have VA.) 

>I know my Fiat Spider doesn't( I think the VW's did though ).

    I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't original.

> Still, most any auto is just full of analog computing elements.

    You're right. Even you're only talking about non-fluid computing elements you can include the numerous levers such as the brake pedal, shifters, parking brake handles, brake cams, rocker arms, trottle pedal lever, trottle lever on the carburator, lots of levers and cams in the carburator, etc etc.

   Joe

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:18:00 2003

--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > ..."Type IVs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks) in the late 1960s, 
> That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)...

Oops... right you are (never had one myself and slipped a cog).

> A friend used to put 1968 Type 3 fool injection...

LOL!  I'm imagining a stream of compressed, vaporized politicians
squirting into the combustion chamber.  :-)

-ethan

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:39:00 2003

>     I've never had a spider but I had other Fiats and MANY VWs and
> they all had VA. One of the common mods to the VW was to change the
> stock VA distributor to a mechanical advance only distributor with a
> faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't
> original.

There was at least one model each of Porsche and VW that had them as stock
original equipment.  Maybe some mid 1950s VW Bus?  (All of the 60s and
newer VW had VA)  Six months ago, I got rid of 3 used mechanical advance
distributors and a Mallory mechanical distributor for VW (and a couple of
boxes of type 3 fool injection stuff).  

Reduction of storage space sucks.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 2 19:47:00 2003

> From:          Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
> Subject:       OT computerless classic cars (was Re: Heathkit EC-1)
> To:            [email-masked]
> Reply-to:      [email-masked]
> Date:          Fri, 2 May 2003 16:50:53 -0700 (PDT)

> do component-level diagnosis.

I did see and knew there were EFI bugs as well from that era.  Very 
good & reliable, what is troublesome is those guys doesn't heed the 
manuals and keep hoses in good repair.

Gee, I rather go with injection (dependable designs is a given) of 
any types over the carbs (had second hand experience w/ my parents 
dealing with an toyota 90 tercel w/ dying carb very recently.  Seems 
very rare few knew how to do a carb right especially those crankerous 
toyota carb or like.

Cheers,

Wizard

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 2 19:53:00 2003

> > That would be the "Type IIIs" (Squarebacks and Fastbacks)...

I think somebody might had missed a shift.  The old bug autosticks 
came with manual box and clutch, has a sensitive sensor 
built into shifter handle (according what I see in bug/bus aircooled 
newsgroups), touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your 
left foot.  It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to 
maintain.

Chrysler is working on and patented number of them on an 
"automanualic" using clutches instead of converter.  I'm watching 
that with keen interest.  It's there in www.allpar.com

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 20:25:00 2003

> I think somebody might had missed a shift.  The old bug autosticks 

Certainly.  But the three lines above, that you are replying to, are
referring not to the Awful Shit Stick, but to the Botch Electronic Fool
Injection.  Which was introduced in the Type 3s (Squareback/Fastback) in
1968, and were NOT available in the 1960s in Type 1 (bug), Type 2 (Bus),
or Type 4.  The "success" of EFI in the Type 3s led to the use of it in
other models in the 1970s.  For example, in about 1972, the bus switched
from carbs over to using the same engine as the Type 4, with fool
injection.

By the mid 1970s, smog requirements had made carburetors so complex and
temperamental that even the most trivial problem was a real hassle.

By the end of the 1960s, the Type 3 was available with a REAL automatic
transmission.  (In the U.S., the bug was the only model that ever had the
Awful Shit Stick.)

> newsgroups), 

Newsgroups are a great source of information.  Removing the engine
yourself is even better.

> touch it effectively "pushes clutch in" instead of your 

Awful Shit Stick/"Auto Stick Shift" had a torque convertor of some sort,
NOT a clutch (pressure plate and friction disc).  Once you got to the
transmission itself, it was, indeed, manual.  But it was only 3? speed,
NOT the "normal" 4 speed manual of all of the other VWs.

> that with keen interest.  It's there in www.allpar.com

With significantly more engine power than the bug had, it certainly could
have worked.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 2 20:27:00 2003

> From:          "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
> Subject:       Analog advance (was: Heathkit EC-1
> Date:          Fri, 2 May 2003 17:37:23 -0700 (PDT)

> > faster advance curve. I used that in a couple of VWs but they weren't

Sounds like 009 distributors.  It was foolishly used to "perk" up 
performance and drivablity suffers bec of wrong advance curves w/ 
vacuum advance carbs.  So u get a "hole" in acceleration while 
accelerating steadily.  That 009 was orignally for bus to push heavy 
weight by pushing rpm up with correct carb for bus.

Basic cure was change back to correct carb w/ dual vacuum advance and 
overhaul that engine.  They don't have the "life" compared to 
liquid cooled engines hence the frequent overhauls.   65,000km is 
about typical for those.

Oh, in other email, troubles with cooling meant wrong cooling 
hardware or missing vital bits like small bits (goes between 
cylinder to plug the "air hole" and cooling flaps helps to direct 
air and proper warm-up process,  correct tinware like fan shound 
(generics didn't have vanes built in to guide air in), etc, good 
engine/body  seal.  Even early engine lid (fewer vent grilles) w/ 
1600cc engine instead of 1200cc straves engine of cooling air.

There were good bugs that had no problems with engine temps running 
a/c add on.

Remember german engineers thought of everything so even little bits 
do matter like in those air-cooled cars.

Even the older jettas that my friends have, I even still find them 
they still need frequent care and expensive.

Cheers,

Wizard

---

From: "R. D. Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 20:55:00 2003

> > squirting into the combustion chamber.  :-)

Someone ought to patent that processes along with a big vacuum,
perhaps controlled by a PDP-11/44, to collect them all for such
processing.  Now that's what I call cleaning up the government! ;-)

Along similar lines, who wants to invest in the production of effigies
(noose or hot tar included) and voodoo dolls (pins included) that look
like politicians?  Perhaps a classic computer could be used to control
an automated order and production system.  Someone fills out a web
form, makes a payment, selects a politicrat, and a effigy/doll bearing
that politicrat's image is produced.  Perfect for 4th of July parades
in the US, Guy Fawkes day celebrations in England, etc.

-- 
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
[email-masked]  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 22:39:00 2003

> in the US, Guy Fawkes day celebrations in England, etc.

The effigy can be in ASCII art no less!

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: Don Maslin <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 23:05:00 2003

> do component-level diagnosis.

But Fuel Injection is not a carburetor - same objective, but
different critter.
						- don

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat May 3 19:12:52 2003

> left foot.  It's electronics/vacuum operated and very crankerous to 

This sounds like the Morris 'Manumatic' that was fitted to some of their 
cars in the 1960s (I think). It was a part electrical, part mechanical 
system that automattically controlled the clutch _and engine speed_ when 
changing gear (shifting). There were synchroniser contacts in the clutch 
unit, a vacuum servo to operate the clutch release mechansism, and 
another servo that connected to the throttle linkage to control the 
engine speed. I have the shop manual (I would, right :-)) and it contains 
considerable detail as to how it works.

Another strange transmission was the Renault Electroshift. This had a 
speed sensor which was connected to a relay box. That controlled an 
electromagnetic clutch (from what I can tell, this was not an electrical 
release for a conventional clutch), and a motor/solenoid assembly 
connected to the gear shift forks in the gearbox. I have the shop manual 
for that too, but it's a module-swapper guide with no details as to what 
goes on inside the units. I would love to obtain an old relay box so I 
could pull it apart and reverse-engineer it (for interest, of course).

Finally, for strange transmissions, there's the 'Roverdrive', fitted to 
the Rover 105R. It consists of (starting at the engine) : A torque 
converter. A convetnional clutch. A 2 speed and reverse (I think) 
gearbox. An overdrive unit, which is controlled automatically by a speed 
sensor. 

> that with keen interest.  It's there in www.allpar.com

As I'v ejust mentioned, automatics without a torque converter were built 
by Renault in the 1960s. I wonder what they've changed...

> > squirting into the combustion chamber.  :-)

That is surely the best use for politicians :-). It gives a whole new 
meaning to the term 'hot air engine'...

-tony

---

From: Jim <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 3 21:45:00 2003

Tony Duell wrote:

>could pull it apart and reverse-engineer it (for interest, of course)
>
>  
>
Used to own an R-10 Renault with that transmission.  Another interesting variant was the American Motor's E-stick. From Canadian Motoring.com:

"In the transmission department, AMC had the industry's widest
range of offerings. The Classic could have a regular three-speed
manual, with optional overdrive; a three speed automatic; an
"E-stick" semi-automatic transmission in which there was no clutch
pedal (when the shift lever was touched it automatically disengaged
the clutch, and the driver just moved the lever from gear to gear);
and "Twin-Stick" overdrive engaged by a separate console-mounted
lever."

Drove one once... Quite the odd beast.

Jim

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 4 02:10:50 2003

Just acquired a VAX 4000/505A (thanks Paul!) with no disks installed -
 anyone got the details for adding a raw DSSI disk to one of these 
things ; the chasis has a drive drive backplane at the top with 4 
edge connectors, into which a drive sled of some form slots in.
I need to knock up whatever is on the sleds, drive LEDs & switches. 
Unless anyone has some excess sleds that I could liberate?...

Ohhh, wonder if the MDS pils of docs has any details on this - off to 
look now :)

ta
greg