Subject: Mark-8 Minicomputer Kit on E-bay

From: Mike <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 17:52:00 2003

Mark-8 Minicomputer Kit/Early Hobbyist First

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=177&item=3404840450&rd=1

Can I claim dibs?

---

From: "Heinz Wolter" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 18:31:00 2003

Dibs? No such thing on ebay ;)

I picked up a kit from this fellow on Ebay,
just the PCBs and chips- and everything looks
good.

As for dibs, you'll have to convince the other bidders ;)
Likely, the fellow mas many other kits available,
so email him. Personally I'd just buy the PCBs, hard
to get chips (CPU, latches, srams) and the toggle switches.
You can come up with a power supply and case yourself
and not get pay for their expensive shipping.

cheers
H.

"Mike" <[email-masked]> wrote
Subject: Mark-8 Minicomputer Kit on E-bay

> Mark-8 Minicomputer Kit/Early Hobbyist First
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=177&item=3404840450&r
d=1

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 19:03:00 2003

I saw this and asked the seller if it was an "original" kit from the 70s
or if it's a current reproduction.

I'm guessing it's current, but I'm going to wait for the reply (or ask
again since it's been a day or two).

It looks cool either way.

Oh, yeah: I had dibs first! :)

   Erik

---

From: "Stuart Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 20:13:00 2003

----- Original Message -----
From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 7:00 PM
Subject: RE: Mark-8 Minicomputer Kit on E-bay

> Oh, yeah: I had dibs first! :)

I saw another seller recently on eBay with a Mark-8 (reproduction) kit,
primarily the boards. He said that he was making the boards and would be
selling more. What I saw looked nice.

I looked briefly, but did not locate the auction or a link of any sort to
the seller. Perhaps one of the more interested parties can find additional
info.

Stuart Johnson

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:08:00 2003

> the seller. Perhaps one of the more interested parties can find
additional

I've been in touch with that other seller and even sent him a scanned
picture of a Mark-8 out of one of my old magazines.  I'll ask his
permission to circulate his email address for anyone interested in the
kits he's selling.

   Erik

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 00:14:00 2003

It is most definitely a reproduction. It was made by Steve, AKA 
"obtronix". I've been watching him sell the exact same package on epay 
for a couple years now.

Bryan

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 08:53:00 2003

> "obtronix". I've been watching him sell the exact same package on epay 

What's a typical price?  I have been semi-interested in making one.
The only odd part I have would be an 8008 borrowed from a Unibus
console board (I have a few spare defective boards sets from Software
Results - turning machines on and off dozens of times per day to
insert and remove product under test is hell on equipment.  Naturally,
DEC Field Service would not cover equipment under such use, at least
not affordably).  The oldest SRAMs I have are 2101s; I have never 
even seen a 1101 close up, so I guess I'd need the whole enchilada
when it comes to "odd parts".

BTW, is there still a source for the old-style strip sockets?  I'm
sure that machined pins are a "better choice", but I was curious if
it was still possible to get period mountings.  (what I tend to do
if I need to see under sockets for stuff I'm building is to scavenge
individual machine pins from busted sockets and attach them under
a pristine socket and solder them in place - not necessarily as
mechanically stable, but at least you can see the traces).

-ethan

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 09:04:00 2003

>"obtronix". I've been watching him sell the exact same package on epay 

I contacted Stephen last night to see what he was up to.  As it turns
out, the kit on eBay is one of his that the buyer probably gave up on or
never had time for.

He's planning to make some more kits and he's working on a web site:

http://mark8.obtronix.com/
http://mark8.obtronix.com/gallery/

It looks like he's off to a really nice start!

Erik S. Klein
www.vintage-computer.com

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 11:46:00 2003

>What's a typical price?  I have been semi-interested in making one.
I have seen them go for between $200-$1000+, depending on the 
completeness of the parts package. The last fully assembled one I saw 
went for a little over $3000 (For the soldering iron challenged).

>BTW, is there still a source for the old-style strip sockets?  I'm
You can buy them almost anywhere. Digikey, I think, has them. I buy them 
from local parts stores.

Bryan

---

From: "Eric Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 15:04:00 2003

Ethan wrote:
> BTW, is there still a source for the old-style strip sockets?  I'm sure
> that machined pins are a "better choice", but I was curious if it was
> still possible to get period mountings.

Machined-pin sockets were available back then (e.g., Augat), and
that's what anyone sensible used if they could afford it.  So there's
nothing wrong with using machined-pin sockets to build one today.  New
machined-pin sockets are not any less "authentic" than new dual-beam or
single-beam sockets.

---

From: "Jim Kearney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 23:12:01 2003

> The oldest SRAMs I have are 2101s; I have never 

I've been hesitant to bring this up here because it skates perilously 
close to the kind of commercial messages that are so annoying, but here 
goes: when I built my Mark-8 (from Steve G's boards), I located some 
NOS Intel P1101's.  I later found some AMD C1101's that look nicer, so 
I never used the Intel chips, and I would like to pass them on to 
someone who would use them.  However, they (being of 1973ish vintage 
and rare) cost me a fair amount, $4 ea, and I'd need to recover that.  
I think I have 26 of them, so 3 banks totalling 768 bytes.

Jim Kearney

p.s. my Mark-8: http://www.jkearney.com/8008/

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 14:11:00 2003

--- Jim Kearney <[email-masked]> wrote:
> However, they (being of 1973ish vintage 

I'm wrestling with a partial redesign or a complete replica.  I guess if
I had the total costs laid-out in column A and column B format, it would
be easier to decide.

Were you besiged by requests?

> p.s. my Mark-8: http://www.jkearney.com/8008/

Nice.  You did one run of boards?  How much did they cost?

-ethan

---

From: "Jim Kearney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 15:35:01 2003

> I'm wrestling with a partial redesign or a complete replica.  I guess
> if I had the total costs laid-out in column A and column B format,
> it would be easier to decide.

The Mark-8 design is markedly inefficient; ones with many fewer ICs are 
pretty easy to come up with.  It's not especially anachronistic to use 
2112's or 2101's, which are relatively easy to come by.

> Were you besiged by requests?

I wouldn't say I was inundated, but I'm happy to say that will be going 
to someone who will put them into an actual 1976 Mark-8.

> Nice.  You did one run of boards?  How much did they cost?

Thanks.  No, I got the basic board set from Steve Gabaly, who's been 
selling them on and off for a couple of years.  He seems to be actively 
selling again, as 'obtronix'.  

Jim

---

From: "Heinz Wolter" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 15:44:00 2003

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jim Kearney" <[email-masked]>

> 2112's or 2101's, which are relatively easy to come by.
If you were wirewrapping or point to point soldering, you 
might consider 2114 static rams. Might be easier to get
hold of thah 2101/2102s or 1101, but they won't fit into
the original or copied Mark-8 boards. 

The pain and weakness of  the Mark 8 design is the bus
connection scheme- soldered wires and molex across the top.
It would be better if you can use RA SIP connectors..

heinz

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 15:59:00 2003

> the original or copied Mark-8 boards. 

Personally, I have quantities of 2114s left over from the COMBOARD-I
parts tubs (32K of SRAM each) and plenty of dud COMBOARDs I could
strip if I *ever* ran out.

As has been discussed here, though, they have long-term reliability
issues, but they are still widely available.  BG Micro stocks them
as well as 2102s, IIRC.
 
> connection scheme- soldered wires and molex across the top.

It's ugly and prone to problems, I know.

If I can find a quantity of 44-pin .156" proto hardware at Dayton
this year, I'm considering wrapping my own.  I need a supply of
WW wire, too... I'm down to two spools.  I need some 44-pin cards
anyway for Commodore and Cosmac VIP projects.

-ethan

---

From: "Jim Kearney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 16:48:01 2003

> strip if I *ever* ran out.

2114's don't quite feel 'right' to me for a period 8008 computer.  I 
guess it's because I had an 8008 in 1976 but no 2114's until 1979.  
Personally I would stick to 2102's or 2112's, but that's entirely 
subjective.

---

From: "Heinz Wolter" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 21:20:01 2003

Ethan Dicks wrote:
...
> issues, but they are still widely available.  BG Micro stocks them

I know - they're very static sensitive - and extremely power hungry!
when they go, they get even hotter ;)
...
> anyway for Commodore and Cosmac VIP projects.
Radio Shaft used to carry these - they were my fave proto boards
as a teenager - being my last resort for parts, but the only source
for people living in small cities, Radio Scrap hardly carries anything
useful to the hobbyist. They do carry a not half bad wire wrap tool
but their ww wire was prohibitively expensive. I picked up a couple
of 1000ft rolls of flourescent orange and red from the local surplus place-
so I've set for a while. I've seen deals on teflon, but it's too hard to
strip.
I'd love to get one of those professional ww guns though - make life alot
easier for my half dozen ww projects currently in progress...
-heinz

---

From: "Bob Lafleur" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 12 09:30:01 2003

I see that the seller backed off his opening price to an even $10,000.
And there are still no bids.

I hope this guy pissed everyone off so much that no one bids.

On the other hand, I *hate* to see him scrap it.

---

From: Jeffrey Sharp <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 12 18:08:01 2003

On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, Bob Lafleur wrote:
> I see that the seller backed off his opening price to an even $10,000. And
> there are still no bids. ... I *hate* to see him scrap it.

If it still ends with no bids, I can arrange a meeting with the seller to
see the machine, and while there, try to convince him not to scrap it.

-- 
Jeffrey Sharp

---

From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 12 21:16:00 2003

> see the machine, and while there, try to convince him not to scrap it.

You may want to tell him the scrap value is not anything like $10,000. 
Four figures, but not five. And that is if he does the scrapping.

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

---

From: ben franchuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 12 21:27:00 2003

> Four figures, but not five. And that is if he does the scrapping.

So we need to pool 25 with $500 to buy a Univac.
I don't want to see it scrapped.
Ben.

---

From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 12 21:38:00 2003

> So we need to pool 25 with $500 to buy a Univac.

Hmmm...I think trying to get *any* 25 of us together, and not have at 
least two folks with bullets/fists/flames flying, would be impossible!

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

---

From: Jeffrey Sharp <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 12 23:35:00 2003

> So we need to pool 25 with $500 to buy a Univac.

Even if someone handed me the necessary money, I'm not sure how I could
handle the logistics. The easiest method of acquisition would be to acquire
the semi trailer as well, hitch it up, and haul it off without removing the
computer. But I can't drive a semi, and I don't know anyone who can or who
has a semi. Plus, my time may be too limited to engage in the affair.

-- 
Jeffrey Sharp

---

From: Roger Merchberger <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 00:16:00 2003

>has a semi. Plus, my time may be too limited to engage in the affair.

Sure you do... I can drive one! Learned when I was 17. My dad's a trucker, 
so I learned early. You'd actually be suprised with the # of people who 
know how to drive a rig [ lorry, for the Brits here ;-) ]. Now, who may be 
licensed... that's another story. My dad doesn't have an encased van - he 
hauls heavy equipment so whatever he hauls has to be "weather-stabile" or 
tarped; neither of which would be compatible with the Univac, I would think.

This is a very rough guesstimate, but not counting possible permits or 
special packing/crating, you can expect to pay between 0.70 and 1.20 per 
mile... but that depends on a lot of stuff - if there are weight/time 
restrictions [cost goes up] but also - if it's a partial load, and the 
trucker can get another partial going to a similar place, the cost can go 
down...

You're best bet would be to contact a trucking agent and have them make the 
arrangements for you (including bidding out the load to the truckers). 
Dunno what their cut is, tho - I only learned about the "grunt work" aspect 
of the business. ;-)

If it's already crated/palletized, I would think it'd be easier to find 
whoever owns the trailer to drive it to a local loading bay, have the 
computer off-loaded, then loaded onto the "relocating" trailer. Otherwise, 
you may have to pay for "dead-head" miles - If the trucker uses his truck 
to haul the other trailer, chances are he may not take the chance of 
getting another partial going the same way (if he doesn't own the 
trailer... weird insurance stuff) and a lot slimmer chances of him getting 
another load back to get his trailer, so you'll prolly be liable for a 
round trip, which gets $$$ a lot quicker...

-- And you may want to put in the bid that the trucker should have a rig 
with a sleeping cab - otherwise, you may get stuck with motel bills. 
(AFAIK, most trucking agents would know if you'd get zinged with that ahead 
of time...)

Hope that give a bit o'insight to the sordid realm of a "Commodity 
Relocator..." ;-)

Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 01:13:00 2003

> see the machine, and while there, try to convince him not to scrap it.

He's had it for years now.  I doubt he's going to scrap it.

Michael Nadeau brought to attention the fact that the seller was featured
in Chapter 7 of Kevin Stumpf's book on collecting computers.  He detailed
the back in 1997 how he tried to buy the machine from the seller but even
had a problem back then.

This guy will hold onto it until someone offers him twice what he thinks
he can get.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: "Sipke de Wal" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 02:06:01 2003

Hmmm, even noncooperative sellers eventually die.
I'd be on the lookout for his beneficiairies .....

Sipke de Wal
--------------------------------------------
http://xgistor.ath.cx
--------------------------------------------

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 02:16:00 2003

> > > I see that the seller backed off his opening price to an even 
> > > $10,000. And there are still no bids. ... I *hate* to see 
> him scrap 
> > > it.
> >
> > If it still ends with no bids, I can arrange a meeting with 
> the seller 
> > to see the machine, and while there, try to convince him 
> not to scrap 
> > it.
> 
> Michael Nadeau brought to attention the fact that the seller 
> was featured in Chapter 7 of Kevin Stumpf's book on 
> collecting computers.  He detailed the back in 1997 how he 
> tried to buy the machine from the seller but even had a 
> problem back then.
> 
> This guy will hold onto it until someone offers him twice 
> what he thinks he can get.
> 
> -- 
> 
> Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage 
> Computer Festival

He apparently tried to trade it for an antique car back in '96. See:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=DyHI
n5.ML2%40iglou.com&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3D%2522univac%2B3%2522%26hl%3
Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26scoring%3Dd%26selm%3DDyHIn5.ML2%
2540iglou.com%26rnum%3D1

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 02:18:00 2003

Why didnt this guy sell the machine during the ".com" bubble when everybody
was stock rich and were buying vintage equipment like crazy?

This guy was sitting on a Rolls Royce during the 20's and decides to sell it
after the market crash.. not very smart.

If this guy kicks the bucket you know the machine will end up in the scrap
yard.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sipke de Wal" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 3:02 AM
Subject: Re: Univac III on Ebay

> I'd be on the lookout for his beneficiairies .....
$10,000. And

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 05:23:00 2003

> licensed... that's another story.

Well, I guess my german military lizence will not be recogniced in the US.
Although, it would be fun to haul a Univac across the states...

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/

---

From: "Bob Lafleur" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 07:49:01 2003

You're forgetting that (per the auction) even if you purchase the
trailer, it is not driveable as is; it needs tires and other work. Not
so simple as to just hitch it up and go...

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Jeffrey Sharp
Sent: Thursday, March 13, 2003 12:32 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Univac III on Ebay

On Wednesday, March 12, 2003, ben franchuk wrote:
>> You may want to tell him the scrap value is not anything like 
>> $10,000. Four figures, but not five. And that is if he does the 
>> scrapping.
>

Even if someone handed me the necessary money, I'm not sure how I could
handle the logistics. The easiest method of acquisition would be to
acquire the semi trailer as well, hitch it up, and haul it off without
removing the computer. But I can't drive a semi, and I don't know anyone
who can or who has a semi. Plus, my time may be too limited to engage in
the affair.

-- 
Jeffrey Sharp

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 09:43:01 2003

> http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=
> UTF-8&threadm=DyHIn5.ML2%40iglou.com&rnum=1&prev
> =/groups%3Fq%3D%2522univac%2B3%2522%26hl%3De
> n%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26scorin
> g%3Dd%26selm%3DDyHIn5.ML2%2540iglou.com%26rnu
> m%3D1

FYI Here's a simpler link to the same article:
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=[email-masked]

John A.
THX to everybody doing the research.

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 13 14:11:00 2003

I knew of a truck driver ( I say knew because I haven't been in contact with
them in a while ) that hauled boats, I believe in the Ohio to Florida route 
if I
remember correctly. I think he drove the tractor back without the trailer
sometimes. They wanted me and a friend of mine to pick up some surplus
stuff for them in the past, and there was some talk on their end of hauling
stuff in return for picking up their stuff. I'm really not sure how 
reliable it all
was. I never wanted to get in the position of depending on it and then
finding out it wasn't getting done. My friend did pick up some of their stuff
up north with his permanently rented 24' Ryder and had it at his warehouse
for a while. They also picked up some of his stuff in areas where they were
going to. Eventually they showed up to get their stuff from my friend, but I'm
not sure they ever brought him his stuff? Anyway, if you all want to get it, I
could check to see if they wanted to hitch up and haul your trailer for you.
If you let him keep the trailer, that might motivate him? Or covering his fuel?
It would probably take someone out in the country with some space and
zoning permission to either park the trailer, or someone with a building along
that corridor that could off load and store the system. I doubt, on what I've
sometimes heard called a "gypsy load", they would want to detour too far
off their pre-established routes.