Subject: Penske is our friend!

From: Gunther Schadow <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 14 21:25:00 2003

Hi, I just closed a deal for a run to get some 60 miles from
here. I was "called to duty" on the Classic Computer Rescue Squad.
I tell you Penske is your friend! I got a liftgate truck for
$75 and $0.18/mi. When you guys rent a truck make sure you
claim a business rate. After all, we are a voluntary non-profit
"organization" that helps businesses get rid of their old computing
equipment and save the environment and the technology. We share
equipment with people in need, including private collections and
museums. That's what we do, so that's what we can claim business
rates for.

cheers,
-Gunther

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From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 14 21:33:00 2003

> museums. That's what we do, so that's what we can claim business

Except without an EIN, its fraud...

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

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From: Gunther Schadow <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Mar 15 22:40:00 2003

I said:
 >>When you guys rent a truck make sure you

> Except without an EIN, its fraud...

Please explain: if I just said what I reported here (actually I
didn't even use the term 'non profit organization') why would
I have to have an EIN and why would it be fraud?

-Gunther

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From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 16 09:07:01 2003

> I have to have an EIN and why would it be fraud?

I'll retract the EIN comment, because a non-incorporated entity can still 
get business rates - if it is for a legitimate business use. An 
individual posing as a business with the sole intention to get some sort 
of perk (business rates on truck rentals, for example) is fraudulent. 
Going out and fetching big computers for a personal collection is not 
business.

It has also been pointed out that it changes the liability and insurance 
coverages quite dramatically on both sides of the deal - you and Penske. 
Don't get into any accidents.

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

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From: Gunther Schadow <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 16 20:27:00 2003

> Going out and fetching big computers for a personal collection is not 

Hmm, your notion of "fraudulent" sounds kind of harsh. I may not
have the same knowledge background in this business that you have. I
don't want to be a crook here so if you think I'm wrong, please help.

They have two rate schedules, the private one being more than
twice as much per mile than the business rate. Why is that so?

Why should someone who carries those computers away for a profit
pay only half as much as one who carry these things away for the
fun of it?

If I part the computers out and sell everything on ebay or, worse,
for gold and scrap value, would that make me eligible for the
business rate?

Who am I hurting by saying that I want the business rate and
telling them the truth about what I do?

> Don't get into any accidents.

I paid on a personal credit card and had a personal contract and
bought the LDW for $15/d, so I think I was clear on that end.

As a conclusion let's put is this way: when asked the question if
I am private or business I simply don't accept the fact that I
should be paying twice as much if I answer a certain way. So I
negociate a better rate without really lying about anything.
So, I am just sharing with you the experience that there is
opportunity for us to negotiate. And that I think that Penske is
the best shop for our trucking needs. Still think I'm committing
fraud? If so, please explain.

thanks,
-Gunther

-- 
Gunther Schadow, M.D., Ph.D.                    [email-masked]
Medical Information Scientist      Regenstrief Institute for Health Care
Adjunct Assistant Professor        Indiana University School of Medicine
tel:1(317)630-7960                         http://aurora.regenstrief.org

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From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 16 20:53:01 2003

> don't want to be a crook here so if you think I'm wrong, please help.

OK, I am sorry if I was a bit harsh.
 
> twice as much per mile than the business rate. Why is that so?

When I started getting trucks for business, I asked why as well. From 
what I was told by the Ryder agent, it is an insurance issue. The 
insurance companies make deals with the rental firms. One of the aspects 
of these deals is that there is a far greater risk of 
truck/person/property damage if the driver is using the truck for 
personal reasons. I suppose they figure that when the trucks are used for 
business use, chances are the guy driving it has more experience. I can 
see their point - driving a 24 foot straight, full of stuff, can be a 
handful, and I have certainly seen some individuals that probably should 
not have tried it! If you are renting for business, chances are you have 
rented before. Remember, the insurance business is all about probablities 
and statistics. 

> pay only half as much as one who carry these things away for the

The easy way to get around this is to form an organization. 

> for gold and scrap value, would that make me eligible for the

Yes.

> telling them the truth about what I do?

The insurance companies. OK, they might deserve it, but it still is not 
right to cheat them.

> fraud? If so, please explain.

It is all a "letter of the law" over "spirit of the law" issue.

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

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From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 16 21:28:00 2003

Hey Guy's,

I hate to rain on your parade but ...

 >Yes.

WRONG. Getting a business license is what would make you eligible
for the business rate.

 > One of the aspects of these deals is that there is a far greater risk
 > of truck/person/property damage if the driver is using the truck for
 > personal reasons.

A well run business would pay what it cost to do the job right and chalk up
the expenses involved as the cost of doing business. A business would be
more concerned with liability and personal injury than many a personal user
ever would. Do you remember about a year to a year and a half ago when
someone on this list rented what was probably the lowest cost truck they
could fit their stuff into, then overloaded it, and broke down. Busted an axle
as I recall. Could have had an accident or even killed someone. That's how
too many a personal user would do it, and the rental company and their
insurance carrier very well know it through experience.

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From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 16 21:46:00 2003

> WRONG. Getting a business license is what would make you eligible

Well, maybe not then...I don't know Penske's rules. However, as was
pointed out, being non-incorporated and doing the above scenario above
certainly is legitimate business, as long as the taxman gets his share
(Schedule C, I think? I don't do it anymore, since I incorporated. Anyway,
that is what accountants are for). No license is needed, at least in some
states. 

I would think, however, that Penske would want to see some sort of 
legitimate business paper if it can't have an EIN. 

> Busted an axle

Exactly, so you could actually think of the business rate as "normal" and 
the personal rate as "built in insurance".

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

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From: Gunther Schadow <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 16 23:52:01 2003

> The easy way to get around this is to form an organization. 

Right. That's what I brought up about 2 years ago when I first
joined this list. I believe as an organization we could even
get some sort of recognition with Penske as a "partner". For now
I am using the "Classic Computer Rescue Squad" as the organization.

It's not incorporated or anything, but ... to come back to the
original topic, I still don't understand how claiming business
rate would be unlawful. I am still thankful for any chapter and
verse where one can look that up.

To me the business rate issue is still largely an arbitrary
inequality where private people are being milked because they
don't know any better.

This insurance thing is not so clear to me since you are not
really insured anyway. I gathered something of a cap of $50000
liability limitation of the customer, that's an insurance with
$50000 deductible! That can't be so expensive. That's why I have
taken out the LDW insurance for $15 extra.  If a zero-deductible
insurance in the amount of $50000 is available for $15 a day, the
risk can't be that high (1 per 3000 customer days). Even if they
didn't have this 50000 cap, I'd much rather take out a fair
insurance and pay what's right than to be ripped off just because
I don't belong to some insider market.

But the good news of the story (only slightly clouded by the
fraud allegations) is that Penske does tend to not rip you off
if you just talk with them.

cheers,
-Gunther

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From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 17 00:07:00 2003

> I am using the "Classic Computer Rescue Squad" as the organization.

Get together a group of guys and incorporate as a non-profit. At the 
state level, it is incredibly easy to do (at the federal level, much hoop 
jumping needs to be done). Cheap, too. Problem solved.
 
> I don't belong to some insider market.

It has nothing to do with the insurance deals between the rental company
and the renters (like you). It has to do with the rental company and the
insurance company. When a truck breaks, for example, Penske files a claim
and the insurance company pays it out. Except in extreme circumstances,
the insurance company does not care who busted the truck, or who was
driving. They just know that individuals break the trucks more often than
businesses, so the insurance companies have to figure this in.  It is
really no different than the reason 18 year old drivers have to pay thru
the nose for insurance and a 40 year old doesn't. 

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon Mar 17 00:29:26 2003

Dave McG and I have used Penske many times.  Their trucks are also much
less likely to break down that UHaul.

Peace...  Sridhar

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon Mar 17 00:29:53 2003

On Fri, 14 Mar 2003, William Donzelli wrote:

> > Hi, I just closed a deal for a run to get some 60 miles from here. I
> > was "called to duty" on the Classic Computer Rescue Squad. I tell you
> > Penske is your friend! I got a liftgate truck for $75 and $0.18/mi.
> > When you guys rent a truck make sure you claim a business rate. After
> > all, we are a voluntary non-profit "organization" that helps
> > businesses get rid of their old computing equipment and save the
> > environment and the technology. We share equipment with people in
> > need, including private collections and museums. That's what we do, so
> > that's what we can claim business rates for.
>

Only if you try to get out of taxes.  You don't have to register a
business if you don't want to incorporate it, but you still have to
present personal liability in case of an accident.  If it's incorporated,
you limit your own liability in the matter.  The liability laregly lies
with the business.

Peace...  Sridhar

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From: Jeffrey Sharp <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 17 01:06:00 2003

On Friday, March 14, 2003, William Donzelli wrote:
> > we can claim business rates
>

IANAL, but I seriously doubt that any such statutes exist in the USA. The
only thing I see happening here is the rental company and the customer
coming to an agreement on a certain price for the company's services.

On each of the several rescues I've done with a rented truck, I was offered
the business rate by the Ryder clerks. They didn't ask me what I was doing
on the trip; they simply offered the business rate outright. I do not feel
that I defrauded Ryder in accepting their offered rate.

-- 
Jeffrey Sharp

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From: Brian Hechinger <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 17 08:22:00 2003

> if you just talk with them.

i've been renting Penske for years (won't use anyone else) and you don't need
to claim you are a business.  i never have.  they start at $.30/mile, and are
more than happy to let you pay that (for the un-informed) but have absolutely
no problem dropping that price.  i don't think i have ever paid more than 
$.18/mile in my life, and if you are going enough miles, you can get it down
even lower (i think $.09 is the lowest i've gotten, but that was for thousands
of miles)

so, in a nutshell, the whole fraud thing is moot, since it makes no difference
to penske if you are a business or not, it just matters if you know that the
$.30/mile is not set in gold. ;)

-brian