Subject: Technical Magic 8S ?

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 21 21:53:01 2003

Anybody familar with a "Technical magic 8S" card?  I found several of
them in a DEC system. They're double width cards and have eight AMI S1602P
LSI ICs on them. Chip Directory says that the 1602s are UARTs.

    Joe

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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 21 23:35:00 2003

> LSI ICs on them. Chip Directory says that the 1602s are UARTs.
Most probably DZ(V)-11 clone cards, or, 8-port async serial cards,
with or without modem control.

--f

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From: "Andy Holt" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 00:58:00 2003

Am clearing out my garage to make space for a PDP 11/34.
Is there any interest at all in a fair-sized pile of token ring stuff - some
4MHz, some 4/16MHz (cards [inc unused PCMCIA], cables, MAUs etc) or should
it all go to the dump.
eBay prices appear to be too low to be worth the bother.
I suspect that thge only people who might be interested in collecting TR
have already been able to pick up as much as they want.

This is in Rayleigh, Essex (England)

Andy

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue Jul 22 01:05:00 2003

I have a box full of token-ring adapters, IBM new in the box, and can't
find a nibble here in the States.  I've been told that token ring
netowrking is an IBM only system, and requies an IBM server to play.

Guess that's why everyone went to Ethernet.

Gary Hildebrand
St. Joseph, MO

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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 01:24:00 2003

> netowrking is an IBM only system, and requies an IBM server to play.
Nah.  Although they ended up being the only ones still holding on to
it, TR was, at one point, a fairly widely-used topology, especially
in areas where network delay was an issue.  4Mbps TR was faster than
10Mbps Ethernet, when under heavy load, simply because TR avoids the
collapsing of throughput when the number of collisions goes up (on
Ethernet).

Still.. TR was expensive as hell, and cabling was same.  NIC vendors
were not abundant (IBM, Madge, 3Com and Compaq come to mind) so those
were expensive, too.

But... TR was good stuff, just expensive, which eventually made it
exotic...

--f

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From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 10:19:00 2003

I worked for a now defunct web company (aren't they all :) which did a lot
of work for a large car company. They dumped their former web hosting
conglomerate (amazingly still in business) for IBM. One of our IT guys had
to go down to make sure the web site we were programming would install onto
IBM's application servers, so he had to go down to their gigantic server
farm in, I think, North Carolina. They told him to bring a token ring card,
cause *everything* at the server farm was token ring. Wanna take a guess how
much an IBM branded PCMCIA gigabit-token ring card goes for? :)

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jul 22 17:59:00 2003

> LSI ICs on them. Chip Directory says that the 1602s are UARTs.

Presunmmbly it's an 8 channel serial card (the name '8S' would also 
suggest this). 

It'll either be an octal DLV11 (Systime certainly made a Unibus octal 
DL11) or an 8 channel version of the DZV11. The former would have all 8 
ports at distinct addresses, the latter is what DEC call a 'multiplexer' 
and has all 8 ports sharing a relatively small number of addresses.

-tony

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From: Bill Richman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 18:36:48 2003

We've got a bunch of it at work, too.  Probably 200 cards (mixed ISA &
PCI), several Madge "Smart" CAUs, LAMs, and RAMs, and a boatload of patch
cables, pigtails, and patch panels for IBM Type 1 cabling (STP).  Anybody
know where we could unload it and maybe get a few bucks for it?  At least
enough to cover shipping it?

---

From: Bill Richman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 18:37:01 2003

> netowrking is an IBM only system, and requies an IBM server to play.

Token-Ring seems to have originated with IBM, but it's not true that you
need an IBM server.  We used to use it with HP, IBM, Compaq, and some
home-grown boxes.  There were several 3rd-party manufacturers of
token-ring equipment, but I think about the only one left these days is
Madge (www.madge.com) and they're moving rapidly to ethernet...

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue Jul 22 21:30:14 2003

> netowrking is an IBM only system, and requies an IBM server to play.

Nosiree.  Any PC, any RS/6000, really, any machine with PCI can do token
ring.

> Guess that's why everyone went to Ethernet.

No, that was because of marketing stuff.  16Mbps TR is significantly
faster than 10Mbps ethernet.  It has a very large MTU/MRU.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue Jul 22 21:52:00 2003

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Bill Richman wrote:

> > I have a box full of token-ring adapters, IBM new in the box, and
> > can't find a nibble here in the States.  I've been told that token
> > ring netowrking is an IBM only system, and requies an IBM server to
> > play.
>

What about Thomas-Conrad?

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Ron Hudson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 22:12:00 2003

No,  You can use a Novell server with Token-Ring and even route between 
machines
on Token-Ring and Ethernet.  I don't know if there are any TCP/ IP over 
Token Ring solutions
though.

On Monday, July 21, 2003, at 10:54  PM, [email-masked] wrote:

>> Is there any interest at all in a fair-sized pile of token ring stuff 
>> -
>> some

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From: Geoff Reed <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 23:43:00 2003

>Nosiree.  Any PC, any RS/6000, really, any machine with PCI can do token

Token ring didn't require PCI bus, I have some ISA Token ring cards around 
here somewhere

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue Jul 22 23:58:00 2003

There are more TCP/IP over TP products than I can even count.

Peace... Sridhar

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Tue Jul 22 23:59:01 2003

Yes, but the ISA token ring cards aren't as well supported as the PCI
ones.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 03:23:00 2003

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Ron Hudson wrote:

> machines on Token-Ring and Ethernet.  I don't know if there are any
> TCP/IP over Token Ring solutions though.
Yes, IP is quite happy to run over TR.  Not all drivers did this
well, but the brand cards had no problems.  I managed a customer's
network for a long time, and that network had two segments: one
with standard ethernet (office network), and the other was TR,
down in the production hall, where all the printing systems and
paper cutting machines were driven.  Those were much happier with
the TR network than they were (before) with Ethernet.  I had a
Cisco 2513 router (Eth <-> TR) inbetween them, although this
could also have been a machine with two NICs, obviously.

--fred

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From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 16:53:00 2003

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Geoff Reed wrote:
> > Nosiree.  Any PC, any RS/6000, really, any machine with PCI can do
> > token ring.
>
> Token ring didn't require PCI bus, I have some ISA Token ring cards
> around here somewhere

And it isn't limited just to PCs. I've seen NuBus Token Ring cards at a
university I did work for, and of course there are HP JetDirect cards that
support Token Ring.

Madge still makes ISA/PCI/PCMCIA Token Ring cards, and 3Com and IBM both
made (and may still sell) several different models of ISA and PCI cards.
There were also many other smaller companies who made ISA cards, but I
haven't seen too many "generic" PCI cards.

On the subject of unusual networks...has anyone come across any fiber
based Arcnet devices? I have a pair of SMC fiber Arcnet cards that came
from a fellow list member, but it appears they need a concentrator and/or
converters to be used. Some of the building automation system computers I
tinker with use Arcnet to communicate with each other, and it should be
possible to get them to play nice over fiber if I can scrounge up all of
the components.

-Toth

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From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 16:57:01 2003

> Yes, but the ISA token ring cards aren't as well supported as the PCI

Of course the real reason for that is that many, many more chipsets were
used for ISA cards, whereas there are only a handful of chipsets that are
used for PCI cards. Some OS such as Linux are gaining more and more
support for these kinds of boards, though it would be nice if *BSD had the
same level of support.

-Toth

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed Jul 23 17:21:01 2003

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Tothwolf wrote:

> used for ISA cards, whereas there are only a handful of chipsets that
> are used for PCI cards. Some OS such as Linux are gaining more and more
> support for these kinds of boards, though it would be nice if *BSD had
> the same level of support.

There's a significant level of support in BSD for TP, because it came from
IBM AOS.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Bill Richman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 19:04:55 2003

We've been running IP over token-ring for years.  Last year, we upgraded
all our machines (200 of them) and in the process replaced almost all of
our token-ring hubs with ethernet switches, and our TR nics with ethernet
cards.  We have a few old servers and some specialized machines that are
still on TR; we have a Madge "Smart RingSwitch" with both token-ring and
ethernet modules in it; it routes at the MAC layer, and seems to work
great.

---

From: Bill Richman <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 19:05:11 2003

And microchannel; don't forget microchannel.  The original "plug and play"
(except _it_ worked...)

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Wed Jul 23 21:46:01 2003

On Wed, 23 Jul 2003, Bill Richman wrote:

> our token-ring hubs with ethernet switches, and our TR nics with
> ethernet cards.  We have a few old servers and some specialized machines
> that are still on TR; we have a Madge "Smart RingSwitch" with both
> token-ring and ethernet modules in it; it routes at the MAC layer, and
> seems to work great.

You downgraded to Ethernet, huh?  Token Ring runs 2Gbps already.

Peace...  Sridhar

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From: Mike Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jul 24 04:20:00 2003

>What about Thomas-Conrad?
I think I have a case of new in the box Arcnet cards etc by them.

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu Jul 24 05:49:17 2003

> I think I have a case of new in the box Arcnet cards etc by them.

Yeah, but I'm pretty sure they still make TP stuff.  Unless they've gone
byebye or something.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Bill Richman <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 19:25:50 2003

Yeah - but just go out and try to find a PC motherboard with built-in
token-ring nic, or a NAS box that supports TR, or one of the
multi-function printer/copier/scanner appliances...  Not to mention the
rather obscene cost of TR nics and hubs/switches.  100Mb ethernet to the
desktop with a switched connection to the server for each workstation
seems to be working just fine, thanks.

---

From: Fran <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 19:29:05 2003

If anyone in the UK wants a 10-port (8 user plus Ring In/Ring Out) MAU
you can have it free, if you pay postage. It is type 1 however it has 
the baluns for use with RJ45 cabling. It is an IBM 8228.

F