Subject: Re: New finds: enough Torch stuff to sink a battleship

From: Jules Richardson<[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 27 07:13:00 2003

Tony,

an all-in-one email...

> OK, in the production XXX, the hard and floppy drives were connected to
> an OMTI board, and thence to the SCSI bus. Your unit is consistent with this

Yep, that's exactly what I have. The case may or may not be a stock part. The
XXX case itself looks to be from something else for sure though - there are
even two spare half-height drive bays inside. 

The XXX I have is a single board called a 'Stickleback' with various connectors
in it - including BT in/out and an Ethernet port (none of these are actually
wired to the back of the case though). There's also markings on the board for a
VME bus connection, but no socket or associated circuitry.

I'm "missing" two ICs: IC139 is just a socket for a 48 pin IC beneath which is
written "WYN8526(ET)". IC140 next to this is a 24 pin socket and is also empty.
Maybe something to do with the ethernet circuitry? The connector's nearby. (ET
= 'Ethernet Transciever" ?? :)

> The production machines have a 8 pin DIN for video.

OK, I do have that but it's labelled RGB; there's also the hole for a socket
labelled 'video' - but as the case is a hack who knows...

> Be careful. This sounds like the case from something else. Production
> XXXs have 2 DB25 sockets, and both are RS232 ports (one actually carries
> 2 sets of RS232 signals, for a total of 3 serial ports). There is no
> parallel port on the production machines....

My Stickleback board is marked as having RS432 and X.25, both on 25 pin ports.
The RS432 port is wired through to the parallel port on the back of the case,
and the X.25 port is wired through to the RS432 port on the back of the case
:-)

> Production machines don't have a conventional power switch. The PSU is
> controlled by a relay. There's a touch-sensitive contact on the front of
> the box that turns the PSU on when touched.

Except on mine :-)  There's a battery hanging loose inside the case, but
nothing resembling touch contacts; it appears that's all been bypassed on this
machine and the power switch works conventionally. I wonder what the correct
procedure of shutting it down safely is... (hopefully one of the various stock
Unix methods will work)

[Torch "Hard Disc"]
> This sounds a bit BBC-micro like!. There is a Torch SCSI hard disk unit
> for the beeb -- it's supposed to be rather rare. The one I've seen is a
> plinth to fit under the nonitor contianing the SCSI interface (connectes
> to the Beeb 1MHz bus) + hard disk and also a floppy drive (connects to the
> normal Beeb disk controller). Maybe you have much the same unit built
> into a case with the Beeb mainboard and monitor.

OK, been inside now - it is a BBC, with a Torch Z80 coprocessor. Torch SASI
interface hooked up to the BBC's 1MHz bus, with a Xebec interface hanging off
that which talks to the hard drive. Integral display is a Microvitec (probably
a Cub). The case appears to be production quality but is a very oddball design
(as is the seperate PSU). See seperate post for link to pics if you can
motivate yourself to look at some grahpics :-}

The keyboard's an ineresting custom design with about a million keys :-)  Half
of these seem to be labelled with various wordprocessing functions. I since
believe I'm missing a modem from it, but one of the spares I have will fit -
not sure where it hooks up to the rest of the system though.

[ Torch-725 ]
> The QuadX I have is in the same case (basically) as a production XXX. But
> the mainboard is a singla 6U VME card, and there's a little 3 slot (I
> think) VME cardcage in the bottom slice. Much the same PSU as 

Hmmm... ok, what I have in that 725 is another BBC, a 68k Torch Atlas board,
Torch SCSI interface, and a Xebec controller talking to the full-height drive.
I need to go poke around in the documentation sometime. And I'll have to hassle
the guy I got these from about the rack-mount QX he has if this is in fact
something different :)

Information on what exactly a Torch Unicorn was would be useful, to be honest.
Some people seem to think it was the name of a complete machine, whilst others
think it was just the name for the range of Torch cards available for the BBC.
Just idly wondering if the 725 was a prototype Unicorn or something; I don't
have details of exactly what machines Torch made.

> This does not sound like a XXXX....

I do have a spare hard disk labelled as Quad X, those tape drives and
controller boards, a surplus Torch-stock PSU, complete ROM set, and the
complete schematics for the QX VME card. I'll just go build myself one... ;-)

>>   Triple X PSU (or so I was told; not having a 'genuine' Triple X I don't
>> know!)
>
> Can you describe it? I've got a couple of XXXs (including a nicely
> expanded one with a Quinring on top), and quite a pile of spares...

Duh! I just picked it up; I'd only noticed the Farnell label before. It
actually says "Triple X 100W" on the side :)  It's not the same as the power
supply in my "prototype" XXX which is a 150W unit, same as the one in the big
"Hard Disc" machine.

> In theory the XXX can support a tape drive on the SCSI bus, but I've
> never managed to get it to work...

I'll keep an eye out when I go through the docs I have. I noticed on the
previous owner's invoices for the XXX that I now have that he recieved it with
a tape drive. Maybe there'll be some info amongst everything that says how it
hooks up. The two tape drives I got were from XXX machines so I can grab model
numbers / interface details from those too.

>>   Seven issue 3 Torch manta boards, 
> These are used in XXX and XXXX machines if you have a real SCSI hard
> drive (as opposed to an ST506 one on an OMTI board).

gotcha. I can't imagine I can make use of seven of them, unless driving them is
easy enough that I can use them in other systems... I've got the docs for the
boards but I don't know how detailed they are yet.

>> Two Torch key disks (with different serial numbers).
> You may not have realised it yet, but the Torch OS is keyed to the serial
> number of the (uncopyable) Key disk. If you have to re-install the OS, or
> if the NiCd goes flat, or... you need the right key disk...

uh-oh :-)
I have two, for machines with two different serial numbers. Hopefully one works
with the 'prototype' system I have (or, if it is a prototype, they disabled
this feature :-)

cheers

Jules

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---

From: "Rob O'Donnell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 27 18:50:01 2003

>not sure where it hooks up to the rest of the system though.

I've been away a week so trying to catch up on the list (hence replying to 
points made in other posts here too!) ...

This unit sounds /very/ like a Torch 68000 Hard Disc machine I have, so 
definitely production quality.  Same ridiculous separate power supply..

Pictures:  (apologies for the quality, they were taken a while back when 
all I had was a webcam, and the machine is buried at the moment!)

http://www.irrelevant.com/pics/Torch004.jpg
http://www.irrelevant.com/pics/Torch005.jpg
http://www.irrelevant.com/pics/Torch006.jpg
http://www.irrelevant.com/pics/Torch007.jpg
http://www.irrelevant.com/pics/Torch008.jpg
http://www.irrelevant.com/pics/Torch009.jpg

Mine appears to be complete - it has the modem (connects somewhere to the 
torch boards, rather than the RS423 on the BBC, so makes 100% of all BBC 
native communications software useless).  68000 board is positioned where 
the Z80 board is on yours, is just bigger.

The barrel jack plug connector on your modems was indeed the standard "plug 
and socket" telephone connector in the GPO days (before they became British 
Telecom) and was not a mass-market commodity - you had to pay quite a lot 
to have sockets installed; most phones were hard-wired.

My machine /seems/ to run a 68000 version of CPN - there is supposed to be 
a unix for it, but I never found a way to boot it into that, or software to 
reload it.

I got rid of most of my other torch stuff; the communicator tried to sell 
for quite a high price on eBay.. makes me cringe to think of so many going 
to landfill.  btw ... I got a pile of old Amstrad CPC bits, mostly GBP 1 - 
5 up on www.eBid.co.uk (free auction site, getting a lot of eBay business 
after their price rises!) at the moment...

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri Jun 27 18:59:00 2003

> Yep, that's exactly what I have. The case may or may not be a stock part. The

My guess is that you have normal XXX boards mounted in a non-standard 
case. Possibly the case from some other Torch product.

> The XXX I have is a single board called a 'Stickleback' with various connectors

Yes, that's standard.

> in it - including BT in/out and an Ethernet port (none of these are actually

The BT connectors are wired to a pin header just behind them _only_. The 
internal modem connects to the Xbus (basically BBC 1MHz bus without 
interrupts!) header and to the header connected to the BT connectors.

> VME bus connection, but no socket or associated circuitry.

The VME interdace is a DIN41612 plug and a few buffers. AFAIK all 
production machines had it fitted.

> = 'Ethernet Transciever" ?? :)

Probably. The ethernet chips (I think there were 3 -- 7990, 7992, and a 
transdformer) wrer optional.

> OK, I do have that but it's labelled RGB; there's also the hole for a socket

Yes, it's analoge RGB at TV rates + 2 syncs + drive for a piezo speaker.

> labelled 'video' - but as the case is a hack who knows...

It sounds like this case once took a BBC micro board...

> My Stickleback board is marked as having RS432 and X.25, both on 25 pin ports.

Yep, standard.

> and the X.25 port is wired through to the RS432 port on the back of the case

As I said, be careful!

> procedure of shutting it down safely is... (hopefully one of the various stock

There's an 8 pin power connector on the stickleback. Is is connected to 
anything other than the PSU and the battery? The touch-switch circuitry 
is on the PSU board, and sends an interrupt over one pin of that 
connector (I can dig out schematics/pinouts if you need them).

> interface hooked up to the BBC's 1MHz bus, with a Xebec interface hanging off

Are you sure it's SASI, not SCSI (not that it makes much difference.

> Hmmm... ok, what I have in that 725 is another BBC, a 68k Torch Atlas board,

Definitely not a Quad-X

> Information on what exactly a Torch Unicorn was would be useful, to be honest.

I thought it was a 68000 coprocessor for the Beeb. 

> complete schematics for the QX VME card. I'll just go build myself one... ;-)

Good luck in finding that custom chip (oh, what did they call it?) that 
handles video, etc...

> hooks up. The two tape drives I got were from XXX machines so I can grab model

Oh, it just hooks up to the SCSI bus... It's getting the software sorted 
out that's the problem.

Still, it can't be worse than the PERQ3a. On that infernal machine, the 
minor device numbers have no relation to the SCSI addresses at all!

> boards but I don't know how detailed they are yet.

The Manta is something I know nothing about, so if you have technical 
docs I'd be interested in probing you for information...

-tony