Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1

From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 13:50:00 2003

>X-Server-Uuid: 262C4BA7-64EE-471D-8B02-117625D613AB
>X-Authentication-Warning: huey.classiccmp.org: mailnull set sender to 
cctalk-admin using -f
>From: "Doug Coward" <[email-masked]>
>X-Accept-Language: en
>MIME-Version: 1.0
>To: [email-masked]
>Subject: Re: Heathkit EC-1
>X-BeenThere: [email-masked]
>X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.10
>List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk>, 
<mailto:[email-masked]?subject=unsubscribe>
>List-Id: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
<cctalk.classiccmp.org>
>List-Post: <mailto:[email-masked]>
>List-Help: <mailto:[email-masked]?subject=help>
>List-Subscribe: <http://www.classiccmp.org/mailman/listinfo/cctalk>, 
<mailto:[email-masked]?subject=subscribe>
>List-Archive: <http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/>
>X-Original-Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700
>Date: Fri, 02 May 2003 11:59:27 -0700
>X-WSS-ID: 12AC63976885576-01-01
>Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
>
>  Ethan wrote:
>> How does a resistive sheet computer work?
>
>  Just a quick note for now.
> Resistive sheets belong to a category of analog 
>computing called network analyzers.
>
>> In the same vein (pun intended)... how would fluidic computers
>> stack up?  Digital?  Analog?  Mixed?
>
> Fluidics (or fluid logic) can have both analog
>and digital processes. You can perform boolean
>operations, but you also can have fluid amplifers.

Hi
 An interesting side note. The power steering of your
auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier.
Dwight

>  --Doug
>=========================================
>Doug Coward                
>@ home in Poulsbo, WA
>
>Analog Computer Online Museum and History Center
>http://dcoward.best.vwh.net/analog
>=========================================

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 17:49:00 2003

> auto is an example of an analog fluid amplifier.

I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that.  :-)

-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

---

From: John Lawson <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:16:00 2003

> I don't think _my_ auto (1968 Beetle) is an example of that.  :-)

  Well, now - not so fast!  While your Bug may not have power steering, if
it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that:

  The automatic transmission as found in a good portion of the cars,
trucks, and busses on the roads today, is a marvelous and complex analogue
computer - solving for the match of the mechanical impedances of the
vehicle versus the engine - given the obvious constraints of both: the
vehicle must be capable of being stopped for variable periods of time,
while the engine cannot be stopped in normal operation, and furthermore
the range of input shaft to output shaft ratios must be maintained to
allow for the torque/horsepower curves of the engine, and, by extension.
it's economical and 'safe' operating ranges, and finally the output
information must be able to have it's sign changed by operator command.
('reverse')

  The engine power must be coupled and uncoupled at various times to allow
speed range changes, and the transmission must accept range-modification
commands from the driver and from the engine systems - like acceleration
kick-down.  All this must be done in a very harsh environment, handling
many foot-pounds of torque and generally multiple hundreds of HP, and be
able to be produced in the millions of units - and do all this
maintenance-free for years...

  Then of course the output 'information' from the tranny flows to a nice
little mechanical computer that continuously solves the differential
equation that arises when two wheels separated by an axle need to
negotiate varying radii while maintaining a fixed and 'solid' relationship
to the input signal. That's why is *called* a "differential".

  But Y'all knew that already, I reckon....

  Cheers

John

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:34:00 2003

> it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that:

A 1968 Beetle would either have a manual transmission, or the Awful Shit
Stick (manual shifting, but a torque converter instead of a clutch).  The
type 3's (squareback, etc) were the first to have a real auto
transmission, and it is unlikely that ANY beetles with the semi-automatic
are still running.

Analog computers are the closest thing to "REAL" computers, since floating
point, as it is commonly implemented, are NOT "REAL numbers", no matter
what any FORTRAN compiler might claim.

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:43:07 2003

--- John Lawson <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > > The power steering of your auto is an example of an analog fluid
> > > amplifier.
> >
>   Well, now - not so fast!  While your Bug may not have power steering,
> if it's got an automatic transmission...

Nope... 4-speed manual.  There was this thing called an "auto-stick",
but that was a servo-operated clutch (and an ordinary manual transmission)
that engaged when you began to move the stick.  You still shifted, but
you didn't clutch.

Anyway... I didn't mean to spawn a car thread here - I just wanted to
speak up because of the comments that suggest that we all drive
power-everything cars.  My 1976 MicroBus does have an analog-component
fuel-injection computer, but I think we've hashed those out here
before (and it has manual steering and a 4-speed manual transmission,
too, plus a vacuum-assisted non-power hydraulic brake system).

I do agree that _a_ power steering rig on _many_ cars is an example
of a fluidic amplifier.  Presumably, one could argue the same for
the master cylinder/slave cylinder on hydraulic brakes.  There's
even a logic element - a safety mechanism that's been standard
in cars sold in the U.S. for decades - a slug in the master cylinder
that sits between the front fluid loop and the back fluid loop that
*normally* just sits there.  In cases where you lose pressure in
one loop, it is forced to the low-pressure side and operates the brakes
in fail-over mode.  I'm not sure whether to call it a comparator or
a flip-flop.  Maybe it's a comparator that drives a flip-flop when
the pressures aren't equal.  In any case, in a VW, there's a red
light on the dash that lights up when the slug moves.  It works.
Trust me on that.  :-)

-ethan

P.S. - re-reading the top of this, in case my use of the term "auto"
was read as short for "automatic transmission", it wasn't meant as
such.  I was recycling the term from the previous poster and using it
as an abbreviation of "automobile" (unless you are a fan of "Futurama",
then it's "automacar" ;-)
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

---

From: Jim <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:45:01 2003

Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:

>it is unlikely that ANY beetles with the semi-automatic
>are still running.
>
>  
>
You'd be surprised...  There are a couple three of them daily driven 
here in my little town (2k pop).

Jim

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri May 2 18:54:01 2003

> it's got an automatic transmission - then I submit that:

Very few Beetles (at least in Europe) had automatic transmission....

> computer - solving for the match of the mechanical impedances of the

I've never worked on an automatic transmission, but I have read the shop 
manual for the Borg-Warner model 35 (which was the standard unit fitted 
on UK automatic cars in the 1970s). 

The control valve block is a work of art. Slide valves operate on 
differences in pressure between hydraulic lines (or between a single line 
and a spring). The pressure in some lines increases as the engine runs 
faster (thus rotating the pump faster), and so on. I am still amazed it 
works!

And of course the torque converter is a rather neat little impedence 
matching analogue computer...

-tony

---

From: "J.C.Wren" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 18:57:00 2003

Heh.  I had a 1968 with AST.  Only it was stuck in 3rd gear.  Very slow
acceleration.  No reverse.  Had a switched wired to the stick so that it
would pull in the electrically triggered vaccum powered clutch.  Used to
make sure to have to part uphill, if I was going to need reverse.  Did you
know that with a little patience, you can roll-start one in 3rd gear?

	I originally bought it for parts, was going to use the engine in a
restoration of a 1967.  And for $300, as a parts car, it was too good to
pass up.  But like many projects, the parts car became the main mode of
transporation for some time.

	Once, the transmission blew.  Transmo fluid everywhere.  Decided that since
the engine was out, may as well rebuild it.  You know how that goes.  Well,
if the engine is out, might as well replace the jugs.  Got the heads off to
swap jugs, may as well put new push rods in.  And valves, they're cheap.
$700 later, I had a new engine, and had fixed the transmission cooler.
Still stuck in 3rd.  No amount of hammering would break it lose.  Drove it
(actually, both the wife and I drove this) another few thousand miles,
transmo blew again.

	Fixed it, wife decided it would expedient to get it hit by a truck (not her
fault, truck ran a turn lane red light).  And she killed my other VW, ran it
over a street sign, completely gutted the pan.  Got rid of it, too.

	One time, I took the '68 in for service to a local shop.  A few months
later, I went some other place to buy parts, was talking about the car.
Counter guy says "Wait, is this a blue or black Bug, and there's some kind
of switch to pull in the clutch on a white PVC tube on the stick?"
Apparently, the story of my creative modification had made the rounds of the
parts store.  He was so amused when I showed it to him, he gave me 5% off.

	--John

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked]
> [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)
> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 19:33
> Subject: Analog (was: Heathkit EC-1
>
>

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:03:01 2003

> that engaged when you began to move the stick.  You still shifted, but

I don't think that I would call a torque converter a "servo".

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:04:01 2003

> here in my little town (2k pop).

YIKES!

WHY??!?
Do they also collect Packard Bell ATs?

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:06:00 2003

> I don't think that I would call a torque converter a "servo".

I remember the phrase "servo" from literature of the time.  I have
never owned one, nor have I worked on one.  I've only seen them
drive by.

-ethan

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:31:01 2003

> never owned one, nor have I worked on one.  I've only seen them

There could very well have been a servo in addition to the torque
converter.  I did a lot of engine work, but NEVER worked on VW
transmissions (I had a friend that did, and handed all of those jobs to
him)

There was one fellow who had a bug with auto-shit-stick AND air
conditioning.  That was one seriously overworked engine.  Switching the
oil cooler to a type 3 and using the >1971 fan housing helped a little,
but not enough.

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:46:00 2003

[VW with "Auto Stick Shift"/"Awful Shit Stick"]
> never owned one, nor have I worked on one.  I've only seen them

I'm sure that you have passed MANY more than have ever passed or driven by
you.

---

From: Jim <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 2 19:59:00 2003

Fred Cisin (XenoSoft) wrote:

>.
No. Mac LCs. ;)

Jim