Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival

From: chris <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 6 11:19:00 2003

>I wish I'd picked up one of the 68k Apples. I'm sure
>the Hamvention will have scads of them though.

Any particular model you are interested in? I have some extra 68k Macs 
here, maybe I have an extra of a model you are looking for

-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 6 11:30:01 2003

How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus scsi
cards at these shows?
I need 1 of each to max out my quadra 840av.

Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices? I have a nice
syquest 44 drive and 10 carts I want to hook up to my IIgs.

TeoZ

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 6 13:24:00 2003

--- TeoZ <[email-masked]> wrote:
> How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus
> scsi cards at these shows?

10/100 NuBus?  Never seen one.  10?  $1-$5 each.  I've also never seen
SCSI NuBus cards at University Surplus _or_ the Hamfest/Computerfest.

The NuBus cards I've seen tend to be 10mbps Ethernet and video cards
in a IIc or similar.

> Apple IIgs scsi cards available there for non ebay prices?

Sometimes.  Kinda rare, though.  Best bet is a IIgs that has one
inside that nobody knows what it is.

-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

---

From: Mike Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 9 04:24:00 2003

>syquest 44 drive and 10 carts I want to hook up to my IIgs.

10/100 nubus cards, once scarce, seemed to have pretty much disappeared. 
I've been doing a search on ebay without any luck for a couple weeks. 
NOBODY really needs one anyway, nubus and 68k macs just don't speed up more 
than about double a standard 10bt. I figure my best chance of finding one 
is hunting in a pile of scrap higher end nubus macs like 8100 servers etc.

SCSI cards are a LOT easier to find, but most sellers seem attached to 
about $25 pricing.

Same for the IIgs SCSI cards. I have a few with no interest in selling them 
below top price, or really selling them at all even though I have a Focus 
card with IDE drive. Only the latter so called Fast SCSI card supports 
removable media, so don't waste your money on the early cards.

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 9 15:39:00 2003

$25 for a nubus uwscsi or a IIgs card is fair, but on ebay some go for over
$50. I find it funny how you see the same person with the same add selling
one a day after his last auction sold. Is it the same one that was bid up by
a shill or does he have a big pile of the rare cards.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mike Ford" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2003 5:17 AM
Subject: Re: Trenton Computer Festival

> >How common and cheap are 10/100 nubus network cards and 50/68pin nubus
scsi

---

From: Mike Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon May 12 05:55:00 2003

>a shill or does he have a big pile of the rare cards.

For at least the last 5 years the MAJOR problem with Apple II related items 
is that they don't sell for high enough price, often enough, to keep more 
than a small percentage of systems from going directly into gold recovery 
bins. I hate to think of how many items that we griped about the silly 
selling price on ebay that are now gone, and never likely to show up at 
other than wild prices if at all. 16 MB IIfx ram simms, eventide sound 
cards for the IIe, Tokamac IIfx 68040 cards.

Nobody is making a lot of money in classic computers, its more like sifting 
a LOT of sand for a few small nuggets.

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 13 08:41:01 2003

Acquire a PDP11/34 system recently (11/34 CPU, RX02 dual drive, 2 off 
RL01 drives) ; before shipping it was running to the point of 
displaying an @ sign on the terminal happily (it didn't boot from DY 
as it should have but I thought I'd address that once it was back 
home).

However, on putting it back together in my shed, the beast shows no 
front panel lights (not even DC OK), no LEDs on any cards & no @. The 
fans whir when powering on (

Card configuration is :
1 AF M8266   KD11EA-control
2 AF M8265   KD11EA data path
3 AF M7840   KE11-B   blackened/hot bits of PCB round resistor DIPs?
4 AB M9132   (soldered wires to FPanel)
  CF M7859   KY11-LB  J1 to (FPanel)
5 AF M7891   128K*18 MOS mem
6 AF         "Dr11 PHI733-1" card, unknown
7 AF M7762   RL11 controller
8 CF M7856   SLU/RTC option
9 AB M9032   terminator
  CF M8256   RX211 interface

If I want to take out the RL01 & RX02 controllers & the unknown card 
in slot 6, do I just leave the cards out (I'm a QBUS guy, don't know 
much yet about UNIBUS and any daisy chaining DMA/INT signals etc) or 
will I need some grant controllers of some form (I may have some in 
the PDP11/44 system I have awaiting restoration)?

Any pointers for what to check out & in what order?

ta
greg

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 13 08:56:00 2003

--- Greg Elkin <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Acquire a PDP11/34 system recently... before shipping it was running..
> ...on putting it back together in my shed, the beast shows no 
> front panel lights (not even DC OK)... The fans whir when powering on

Hmm... How far did you dismantle it for shipping?  Did you haul it
or did you leave it in the hands of a common carrier?

> will I need some grant controllers of some form

Just like the Qbus, the Unibus has several signals that need granted.
More, in fact.  If you know that the NPR jumper is in place (i.e., it's
an empty slot or had a *non-DMA* peripheral), you can use a G727 single-
height grant card.  If you pull a DMA peripheral (RL11, for sure, probably
the RX211 as well), you must either install a dual-height grant card
(G7273 or a Software Results GC747) _or_ put the NPR wire back on the
backplane and use a G727.

Now... the "good" news is that this only affects interrupts and DMA
requests.  AFAIK, console ODT (the '@' prompt) has nothing to do wth
interrupts.  You should be able to stuff the CPU, a DL-11 and little
else (probably a bus terminator at the end of the CPU backplane, and
maybe some memory) and get the prompt when you power on.  First order
of business, though, is to check your voltages.  The fact that you have
no DC OK light is a blatant symptom.  It could be because of a short,
or perhaps something got rattled loose in a PSU during shipping.

Investigate the PSU fully before moving onto the cards.  Reduce
your system to the system backplane only (if you have any DD11-DKs or
the like).  Look into the backplane slots themselves with a flashlight
(for a washer or other conductor that might have dropped in there).
Check the back of the backplane for any bent pins that might be causing
a short.  Disconnect the backplane from the PSU and check it for shorts
electrically.  

-ethan

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue May 13 19:31:22 2003

> However, on putting it back together in my shed, the beast shows no 

What did you dismantle for shipping? Is it possibly you forgot to plug 
something back in inside the 11/34 power supply?

> fans whir when powering on (

OK, so it's getting mains as far as the transformer.

HAve you checked the DC power supply rails at the backplane? That would 
certainly be my first test.

> the PDP11/44 system I have awaiting restoration)?

You do need grant continuity cards in the Unibus. In fact there are 5 
grant lines -- 4 BG lines for interrupts and an NPG line for DMA.

There are 2 sorts of grant continuity cards. Single-height ones go in 
slot D only, and connect the 4 BG lines. You have to put a wire-wrap 
jumper between pins CA1 and CB1 on the back of the backplane for the NPG 
line. Dual hight ones go into slots C and D and complete all 5 grants.

> Any pointers for what to check out & in what order?

(1) check the PSU!

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue May 13 19:31:32 2003

> maybe some memory) and get the prompt when you power on.  First order

There is a problem with this. The standard terminator for the 11/34 
contains circuitry to assert SACK if a grant ever gets to the terminator 
(this should not normally occur, becuase the device asserting the request 
line (to cause the aribiter to assert the grant line) shouldn't pass the 
grant on). Anyway, an open grant line looks to the terminator as though a 
grant is asserted,, so the terminator asserts SACK. Since nothing can be 
done to remove this 'grant', SACK stays asserted, and the Unibus is 
locked up.

My experience suggests that a small Unibus machine (say 1 or 2 backplanes 
in the same box) will run without a terminator at the far end of the bus. 
So to start with it's safe to pull the terminator if you think you have 
an open grant problem. On these 11/34 machines, an open grant will cause 
the 'Run' LED to be on, and you won't be able to halt the CPU from the 
panel. 

> of business, though, is to check your voltages.  The fact that you have

Agreed!

-tony

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 15 09:20:00 2003

thanks for the pointers & info re grant continuity on UNIBUS.
I picked the 11/34a up myself and carted it back home safely. System 
was 2 RL01s and the BA23-like (don't know the designator for the 
unibus box similar to the QBUS BA23, will look later) PDP11/34a, and 
an RX02 diskette drive. No disassembly of the 11/34 box till it got 
home and didn't power the DC ON led on the front panel. Removed 
(documenting as one went, of course :) the cards from the UNIBUS card 
frame, and left just the backplane, still no DC ON light. So a 
suspect PSU, which I've got out of the box now and on the bench. will 
throw the meter at it in a bit to see what volts are or aren't coming 
out...

greg

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 23 14:39:00 2003

Hello Mike,

I couldn't help but noticing the message below from you a little while back,
and I also remembered you messed with some apple and macintosh stuff.
If you have any National Instruments Nubus NB-DIO32F boards, and the price
is right, I might be able to buy all that you might have available that are 
in good
condition.

Best Regards

At 10:27 PM 5/11/03 -0700, you wrote:
>For at least the last 5 years the MAJOR problem with Apple II related 
>items is that they don't sell for high enough price, often enough, to keep 
>more than a small percentage of systems from going directly into gold 
>recovery bins. I hate to think of how many items that we griped about the 
>silly selling price on ebay that are now gone, and never likely to show up 
>at other than wild prices if at all. 16 MB IIfx ram simms, eventide sound 
>Nobody is making a lot of money in classic computers, its more like 
>sifting a LOT of sand for a few small nuggets.

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 25 11:33:00 2003

The 11/34a I collected recently (BA11-L chasis, H777 PSU) and had 
difficulty getting to power up is in better shape now that it's had a 
good clean ; backplane inspected and all the dust & debris removed 
from its slots (via "fart in a can", ie compressed air :), the cards 
have had their edge connectors cleaned (india rubber) to be nice and 
shiny. 

Switching to DC ON, the fans whirr happily and the front panel now 
has "DC ON" and "RUN" LEDs on, with 000000 on the 7seg LEDs. 

If I try to halt (keypad CNTRL + HLT/SS), the RUN LED stays on and 
BUS ERR LED also comes on. 

I can enter an address via LAD, and DISADD shows it again, so the 
keyboard seems functional, but I can't change any memory with DEP or 
EXAM as the thing is "RUN"ning...

No $ display on the console terminal yet either.

Do I need to have the RX02 and RL01 drives connected & powered up for 
the CPU box to do anything? I shall try to get some grant cards to 
replace the RL11, RX211 and whatever the (non DEC) DR11 card is and 
see if I can at least get the console emulator to pop up on the 
terminal.

Off to read the 11/34 Users Manual next (many thanks to Al Kossow for 
his site hosting this and so many other usefull docs)

ta,
greg

Card configuration is :

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 25 14:52:01 2003

> BUS ERR LED also comes on.

FAQ.  This is the result of having a 9302 terminator, whichg asserts
SACK, and a missing NPR jumper somewhere.  Either you have a card
missing, or you've put a card that doesn't pass NPR into a slot where
previously there was a card that did (or you've put a small grant card
where you should have a full-size one).  Ethan mentioned this in
response to one of your posts recently, and Tony (on more than one
occasion) explained in detail why this has the effect it does.

http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-May/022031.html
http://www.classiccmp.org/pipermail/cctalk/2003-May/022051.html

Don't feel *too* bad about it, I got caught myself with that, once.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun May 25 16:11:14 2003

> SACK, and a missing NPR jumper somewhere.  Either you have a card

[...]

> occasion) explained in detail why this has the effect it does.

And I've just given a brief explanation _again_ :-)

> Don't feel *too* bad about it, I got caught myself with that, once.

Me too... And I once had a problem of a machine halting at the power-fail 
trap vector (I think) which turned out to be due to a failed DIP switch 
on a DL11 which made that device's interrupt vector the smae as the power 
fail trap. As soon as RT11 booted and enabled interrupts, the machine halted.

It look a long time to find that one. Of course I spent most of that time 
with the CPU boards on extenders, trying to sort out the power fail logic...

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun May 25 16:13:00 2003

> from its slots (via "fart in a can", ie compressed air :), the cards 

Oh, you mean a can of pneumatic fluid :-)

> BUS ERR LED also comes on. 

OK... This is rapidly becoming a FAQ here. You have an open-circuit grant 
chain somewhere, and the M9302 terminator (I assume you've got an M9302 
-- it's standard on the 11/34) is asserting SACK and locking the bus.

Start by pulleing the M9302 (if you only have the one backplane, the 
machine will run without termination at the end of the bus, at least for 
testing). If that gets the machine going, you need to check for missing 
NPG jumpers and cards that are not correctly passing on the grant signals.

> 8 CF M7856   SLU/RTC option

I notice a couple of NPR devices there (the RL11, the RX211, maybe the 
DR11) -- are those in the original slots? If not, you may have the NPG 
jumper fitted on the slot where an NPR device is installed (which will 
cause problems later) and missing on a different slot (which will cause 
the problems you are seeing).

-tony

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 25 16:43:00 2003

Thanks Tony, Pete et al

I need to go over the backplane to find how DMA (NPR) grant thing is 
wired on this sytem. Need to learn about Unibux, MUD and SPC and all 
the other bits yet :)

With the M9302 terminator + SACK logic board removed, the front panel 
now shows RUN briefly then BUS ERR when turning DC ON. And I can 
deposit & examine data into RAM at 1000+. Trying to look at ROM at 
777300 gives a BUS ERR again.

Whee, progress anyway from a week or so ago when I was worrying that 
the PSU was not happy.

greg

---

From: Norm Aleks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon May 26 22:48:01 2003

Hi, folks.  I'm starting a vacation this Saturday with a few days in
Manhattan.  Are there good classic computing or telecommunications
museums, or other interesting sites, there?  I know IBM used to have a
museum in Manhattan, but I never got to see it -- I'd hate to miss
something else just before it closed.

Any help is appreciated, and I'll gladly take pictures and/or send 
postcards for those who are interested :-)

Norm

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 27 08:23:00 2003

My impression is that the devastation that was the World Trade Center
took out NYC's second-hand electronics marketplace.  That is, when the
WTC was put IN, in the 70's, they took down all the buildings that housed
the radio parts sellers.  As for the IBM museum, I saw its incarnation in a
Westchester warehouse in 1991, it's a Great collection, but well out of
NYC even then.

A joke, son: Maybe your best bet is to find a 3rd rate electronics store
passing off a 1981 PC as "new".
(Hard to get past that $1,100 pricetag though <g>)

Someone else?

John A.

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 27 10:35:00 2003

Got given a couple of "Dyna 5" BA23-size QBUS enclosures a bit ago - 
a bit tatty (rusted & dirty, must try to get a sandblaster or 
something to see if they can be rescued)
just looking through the cards, can't ID this one yet :

dual height QBUS
Baydel (http://www.baydel.com) logo on the handles, "Baydel ltd" "CCK 
2789" "B01079 iss4 C1984 CTS-11" on the board.

50 pin (2*25) front connector (what's the proper name for these 
ribbon cable IDC connectors/plugs? Berg? other?)

1 AM2901, 2 off AM2910, 6 off AM27C291. 1 62256 (32k*8 SRAM I think), 
some TTL, DEC interface & PAL DIPs, 16MHz rock.

From around 1990 or so (chip dates)

Any ideas? Didn't turn anything usefull up on Google, I've emailed 
Baydel support for a laugh...

ta
greg

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 27 12:46:00 2003

> Baydel support for a laugh...

Baydel were (are?) latterly quite well known for RAID systems; prior to
that they made (amongst other things) QBus floppy controllers, to
connect to SA800/850 drives.  I have a couple of single-density ones
that emulate an RXV11 or a pair of RXV11s.  I'd guess this board is an
emulation of an RXV21, to connect to SA800/850 drives.  Power it up,
and see if it responds to the RXV21 addresses.

BTW, I found Baydel quite helpful when I wanted some information about
mine (labelled F11-311) -- but that was a decade ago and I don't know
if the same technical staff will still be there.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 27 13:23:01 2003

> something to see if they can be rescued)
Sand-blasting is great. I applied this to some parts of a rusted
PDP-11/34A, repainted them, looks like new. Reminds me. I still haven't
sand-blasted the card cage...

> dual height QBUS
> Baydel (http://www.baydel.com) logo on the handles, 
Can you put it into a KA650 / MV III / MV 3500 or better machine and do
a 
show qbus
on the ">>>" prompt? 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

---

From: "Rob O'Donnell" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 27 17:02:01 2003

>2789" "B01079 iss4 C1984 CTS-11" on the board.

No idea, I'm afraid, but reminds me - I used to have *two* complete Baydel 
mfr'd PDP11 clone machines kicking around at the office for a time, until 
my boss took them to the *tip* whilst I wasn't looking one day a couple of 
years ago :-(

AFAIKR Baydel had their own versions of pretty much all the cards in the 
box bar CPU..  There is a chance we may still have some docs kicking about 
at the office - will try and have a hunt next time I'm in there for any 
length of time.

(Stuck on site at the moment trying to sort out a massive mix of Cat 4 and 
Cat 5 cabling where previous occupier of building simply cut the lot off to 
remove the patch cabinets [and microvax - older sockets all have a DIGITAL 
logo emblazoned on them])

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 29 11:42:00 2003

Thanks Rob, Jochen, Pete for your help.

Baydel tech support emailed me back quite quickly to let me know that 
the card is a "CTS-11", and was designed to replace a TS11 + 
controller with a QIC drive (there was a disconnected QIC drive in 
the Dyna5 chasis, but it was so corroded, dirty & yuk that it's in 
the heading for the bin pile)

The chap at Baydel (Leatherhead, UK) said he'd been there for years 
(25 or more) and had seen them through making whole PDP11 systems 
(apart from DEC CPUs) to their current range of NAS & SCSI RAID etc

cheers
greg

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 29 18:52:01 2003

> (apart from DEC CPUs) to their current range of NAS & SCSI RAID etc

That was probably David Vallance.  He was really helpful.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: "Greg Elkin" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 04:06:00 2003

>That was probably David Vallance.  He was really helpful.

That's the chap. Yes, very helpfull.

greg