Subject: Re: RE: Oldest computer still in current use

From: "Pierre Gebhardt" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 10:03:00 2003

Additional question:
Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? 
What about TCP/IP ?

Pierre

[email-masked] schrieb am 10.05.03 21:41:39:
> 
> Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11.
> 
> 
> On Sat, 2003-05-10 at 14:14, UnRooster wrote:
> > What about Commodore 64?
> > 
> > http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/index.html
> > 
> > 
> > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal 
> > >operational use
> > >
> > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet
> > >
> > >3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages 
> > >that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, 
> > >don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know 
> > >if there was something older)
> -- 
> Barry Skidmore           | Hobbyist Systems:  
> [email-masked]  | C64/128
> Red Hat Linux 8.0        | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS
> Postfix 1.1.11           | Mac SE/30's
> --

____________________________________________________________________________
Fur 92 EUR mit Lufthansa quer durch Deutschland fliegen. Jetzt online
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---

From: Barry Skidmore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 11:11:01 2003

I think the answer is yes to both questions if it is running Unix (BSD),
but no if it is running RT-11.

---

From: Andreas Krennmair <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 11:42:01 2003

> Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? 

simh is able to simulate some kind of network adapter for the PDP-11, so
hardware exists to connect a PDP-11 to the internet. In fact, I already
had 2.11BSD running inside simh, downloading software via FTP.

regards, ak
-- 
What makes you think that I'm not a chatbot?

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 12:28:00 2003

> but no if it is running RT-11.

Then go and look up "fuzzball" :-)

(hint: try http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/ )

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Megan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 12:47:00 2003

>but no if it is running RT-11.

The answer is yes to both even for RT.. there is a TCP/IP stack
for RT which was submitted to DECUS.  I seem to remember 110939
as the package number.  There are also third-party TCP/IP
stacks for RT (and the other pdp-11 OSes)

					Megan Gentry
					Former RT-11 Developer

+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+
| Megan Gentry, EMT/B, PP-ASEL   | email: mbg at world dot std dot com |
| Member of Technical Staff      |        megan at savaje dot com      |
| SavaJe Technologies, Inc       |                                     |
| 100 Apollo Dr.                 | URL:     http://world.std.com/~mbg/ | 
| Chelmsford, MA                 | "pdp-11 programmer - some assembler |
|                  (DEC '77-'98) |  required." - mbg            KB1FCA |
+--------------------------------+-------------------------------------+

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 12:57:00 2003

> Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ? 
???
Sure! I have a PDP-11/73 with 2.11BSD UNIX. This machine is capable of
all the standard TCP/IP servives like telnet, ftp, smtp, ntp, ...
I don't know about other PDP-11 OSes, but I wouldn't be surprised if
there is DECnet support. 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 15:31:00 2003

>stacks for RT (and the other pdp-11 OSes)

I assume you're talking about Alan Baldwin's stack, it works great!  I've only used it for Telnet and FTP, but as I recall it even supports email, and web.  In fact it can be found at shop-pdp.kent.edu, and that's what shop-pdp.kent.edu is running.

For the person asking about connecting a PDP-11 to the net:
There is TCPware for RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, MicroRSX, and I believe RT-11, TSX+, IAS, and of course VMS/MicroVMS.  Unfortunatly to the best of my knowledge there has never been a TCP stack for RSTS/E.  ISTR, that someone else made a commercial stack, but I'm not sure who or what they supported.  Also, Johnny Billquist has an unreleased partially done stack for RSX-11M+.

Of course there was DECnet support for all of the OS's that I mention above, as well as TOPS-10, TOPS-20, and at least a couple other OS's (apparently there was support somehow for the PDP-8, and I think the PDP-15).

			Zane
 
-- 
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| [email-masked] (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

---

From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 17:15:00 2003

> Can the PDP-11 be connected to the internet ?

Starting in the early 1980s, a lot of the development of TCP/IP was
done using PDP-11 based systems running David Mills' Fuzzball software.
The Fuzzballs also played a very prominent roll in the NSFnet backbone.

There's also the PDP-11 based 2BSD distribution which supports TCP/IP
networking on a variety of PDP-11 models.  The latest release, 2.11BSD,
supports systems as old as the PDP-11/70 model, which was first
introduced in early 1975.

I don't know if there are TCP/IP stacks available for OSes like RSX-11
or RSTS-11, which might run on some of the older PDP-11s.  I do see that
there's one for RT-11, but it only supports the Q-bus DEQNA ethernet
module which would have to be used with more recent systems (late 70s
through 1980s).  Were there support for the Unibus DEUNA adapter, you
could probably run it on something like an 11/45 from 1972.

There are also the original Arpanet IMPs, based on the Honeywell H516
(the systems were introduced the mid to late 1960s), but they only ran
the Arpanet precursor to TCP/IP.

-brian.

---

From: "Fred deBros" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 20:03:34 2003

I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01  infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an
hdd

The back panel looks almost like a Vaxstation, except that it has two
scsi terminators, 3 mmj plugs called 1, 2 and 3 with the two-way arrows
on them (my guess serial i/o) and a db25 instead of the db15. Above the
db25 plug is a square containing a broad arrow upward, not the usual
printer symbol found  on dec eqpt. No mouse and no kbd plug there. But
otherwise, the back of the box looks similar: it has the aui and bnc
Ethernet connectors, the push-button switch between them and the s3
switch between the check lights and  the db25 pin plug.

So the s3 switch looking exactly like the one on a Vaxstation 3100
series should do the same: switch from serial display/console to
terminal. And the dB25 plug is not a printer out, but functionally
similar to the db15 of the vs3100: it carries mouse/kbd and b/w analog
signals (single bnc) for a terminal display. No SPX or GPX board in
there anyways. Am I right? 

Long slide for a short question: 
Is there a DEC cable that fits this db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd
plugs - analogous to the vs3100 15-pin plug? 
Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? 

All I need is kbd and analog out. That would allow me to fire up this
otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax.
Or try the new linux vs3100 kernel on a compact system that has the cd
built-in.....

Fred

---

From: Barry Skidmore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 20:39:00 2003

On Sun, 2003-05-11 at 15:29, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> There is TCPware for RSX-11M, RSX-11M+, MicroRSX, and I believe RT-11, 

If you have more information about the availability of TCPware for
RT-11, I would be very interested.

Thanks,
Barry

---

From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 21:39:00 2003

On Sun, 11 May 2003, Fred deBros wrote:

> scsi terminators, 3 mmj plugs called 1, 2 and 3 with the two-way
> arrows on them (my guess serial i/o) and a db25 instead of the db15.
> Above the db25 plug is a square containing a broad arrow upward, not
> the usual printer symbol found on dec eqpt. No mouse and no kbd plug
> there. But otherwise, the back of the box looks similar: it has the
> aui and bnc Ethernet connectors, the push-button switch between them
> and the s3 switch between the check lights and the db25 pin plug.

That sounds /exactly/ like what's on the back of a MicroVAX 3100 (either
a 10, 20, 10e, or 20e).  This would be a contemporary system to the
VAXstation 3100, but there aren't any graphics options for it.

> Long slide for a short question:  Is there a DEC cable that fits this
> db25 plug and that has the mouse/kbd plugs - analogous to the vs3100
> 15-pin plug?  Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug?

If this is an early MicroVAX 3100 derived system, which I believe it is,
the DB25F connector is a standard serial port.  You can connect a null
modem between it an a serial terminal (or a straight through cable for
other serial devices)

> otherwise nifty combo in netbsd for vax. Or try the new linux vs3100
> kernel on a compact system that has the cd built-in.....

 he ports labelled 1-3 are standard DEC MMJ serial ports.  Port #3 is
the one you should use for the serial console.  If you want a
keyboard/display,l you'll either need a terminal or a PC and a null
modem running terminal emulation software.

Your best bet for getting an OS running on this is to run NetBSD/vax.
There's a bootable ISO cdrom image available at:

  <ftp://ftp.netbsd.org/pub/NetBSD/iso/1.6.1/vaxcd.iso>

-brian.

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon May 12 00:14:00 2003

>RT-11, I would be very interested.

I've no idea, I know the RSX-11M+ version is still available.  I assume if you contacted them they'd sell you a license.  I also assume you're a hobbyist, and even if you're not, Alan Baldwin's probably offers more features.

			Zane

---

From: Kevin Handy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon May 12 09:42:00 2003

>The back panel looks almost like a Vaxstation, except that it has two
Should only have one SCSI connector, the other connector you see is probably
the ansync io port.

The infoservers had special ROM's in them, which may cause problems trying
to use the system as a regular VAX.  I think replacement ROMS aren't too
hard to get.

>scsi terminators, 3 mmj plugs called 1, 2 and 3 with the two-way arrows
MMJ was only used for serial ports, signals should be in the RS232 range.

>there anyways. Am I right? 
I doubt it. It is probably a standard RS232 serial port. DEC used odd
connectors for the keyboard/mouse/video connectors, so that people
couldn't plug things into the wrong port. The connectors varied with
the video cards.

They didn't use a 25 pin port for parallel printers on the VAX.
That was an IBM PC thing (use cheaper connectors to save $$'s
in manufacturing).

It sounds like this system based on a 3100-10. No built-in video support,
unless they added an optional video card. I doubt they would put a
video card in an infoserver.

>Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug? 
Look at the RS-232 specs.

>Or try the new linux vs3100 kernel on a compact system that has the cd
Plug a terminal (9600 baud) into MMJ-1, and you should be able to talk 
to it.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 16 10:46:40 2003

> I have a MODEL -SEACD-AX-A01 infoserver 150 box containing a cd and an

That's actually a pretty nice box.  It's a storage server.  It doesn't
have VAX roms, though, so it can't run VMS.

> there anyways. Am I right?

Nope.  You don't hook a keyboard and mouse to this thing.  It'll only
accept a terminal.

> Does anyone have the pinouts to this db25 plug?

No.  It doesn't need a keyboard, mouse, or monitor.  It uses a terminal.

> kernel on a compact system that has the cd built-in.....

It won't run NetBSD.  It uses a terminal and runs software specific to the
infoserver.  It can act as a storage server, serving disk to VMS machines,
and also as a MOP boot server for VAX, PMAX, and Alpha machines.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: "Witchy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:49:43 2003

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Fred deBros
> Sent: 11 May 2003 19:47
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150
>
>

Hi Fred,

Here's my reply to the last time you posted this question on the 12th March:

-----8<------------------------8<-----------------
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Fred deBros
> Sent: 12 March 2003 03:04
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: RE: DEC InfoServer ?
>
>
> Specifically: Does anybody have the pinout to the db25 (not a db 15!)
> plug of the infoserver 150 model SEACD - AX - A01 in the back?  The
> caption above the plug shows a square with an up-arrow in it. Monitor?
> Combo kbd/mouse/monitor?

Fully standard RS232 for modem connections.

> And the S1 switch nearby that switches regular vs3100's  between serial
> and terminal console mode.
> Does that mean it has a built-in framebuffer for at least b/w like all
> vs3100's and can serve as a console?

Nope. Console is the left-most MMJ port on the back and is for something
like a VT420. No framebuffer in these things....

> There are three mmj plugs in the back, named 1,2 and 3 with horiz arrows
> to left and right: why three serial consoles? All simultaneous?

The 150's using the same hardware as a VAXstation so it gets 4 serial lines
too.

> And two scsi terminators. Two scsi buses?
> So where does the kbd go???

Into the VT420 :)

> Otherwise the box looks just like a vs3100 to me, so it should run
> netbsd1.6. BTW for those who play with it: Ping works on a vs3100m38,
> although it does not return the pkt count to console, so it looks
> broken....hate dead dinosaurs! Try telnet instead and bingo!

There's definitely ROM differences since I don't recall ever getting a dead
sergeant prompt (>>>), it just auto-booted. Mind, we were using it in a
production environment so I didn't get much time to play with it....still,
it's downstairs now and I've been talking about doing a hardware comparison
for weeks now :)

cheers

--
adrian/witchy
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum
www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans

-----8<------------------------8<-----------------

Since posting that I've added pictures to my Binary Dinosaurs museum (which
I also posted here):

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/Museum/Digital/infoserver.htm

I've got a BC09J-03 SCSI cable still in its bag in front of me right now and
the Infoserver is behind me waiting for me to get some time to actually try
and boot a VMS 7.3 CD just to see if it will.

Watch this space :)

--
adrian/witchy
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the online computer museum
www.snakebiteandblack.co.uk - monthly gothic shenanigans

---

From: "Witchy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 18 02:30:01 2003

> Behalf Of [email-masked]
> Sent: 12 May 2003 07:08
> To: Fred deBros
> Cc: [email-masked]
> Subject: Re: DEC hardware question re infoserver 150
>

This I can confirm having just tried to boot VMS 7.3 and finding it's not
very happy with that arrangement at all and just locks up :)

VAX ROMs will be required I think.

cheers

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Mon May 19 09:33:46 2003

On Fri, 16 May 2003, Witchy wrote:

> > It won't run NetBSD.  It uses a terminal and runs software specific to
> > the infoserver.  It can act as a storage server, serving disk to VMS
> > machines, and also as a MOP boot server for VAX, PMAX, and Alpha
> > machines.
>
> This I can confirm having just tried to boot VMS 7.3 and finding it's
> not very happy with that arrangement at all and just locks up :)
>

Don't bother.  Just get the InfoServer software and use it as "god
intended".  8-)

The device is quite useful in and of itself.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon May 19 13:25:00 2003

--- [email-masked] wrote:
> > > It won't run NetBSD.  It uses a terminal and runs software specific
> > > to the infoserver...
> 

Hear, hear.  I'd _love_ to have one to share between my DEC 4000
and my VAXen.

-ethan
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