Subject: Found that VS-85..

From: Jim Donoghue <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 07:58:00 2003

Finally found a Wang VS-85. Had to take it apart to get it in the house!
I'll be putting up some information and pictures on my web site soon.
The power supply had been removed, so I hacked together some cables and
used a power supply from something else. It has 1MB main memory, an I/O
controller for 16 serial (Wang coax-connected devices), four SMD disk
ports, a tape drive controller, and a couple of other unknown I/O
controllers.

The most interesting part:
A CE manual, describing the CPU architecture, theory, and lots of other
useful stuff, along with complete schematics for the whole system, and
most of the I/O controllers.

This machine is 32-bit, with an instruction set similar to the IBM 370.
The CPU consists of a ton of TTL chips, an ALU made of 74181's, and an
8KB writable control store. The microcode for the CPU resides on a 5
1/4" floppy disk. The floppy disk drive in the CPU cabinet can only load
microcode, you can't use it to store data.
Each I/O controller has its own CPU (or several). The old ones have a
couple of 74181's and EPROMS with a control program, the newer ones use
Z80's, and have RAM only, the control program gets loaded to them when
you IPL the system.

It's about the size of a clothes dryer. The standard power is 120vac,
but the hacked-in power supply is 220vac. Draws about 4 amps @ 220vac.

-- 
Jim Donoghue
Smithy Co.
(734) 913-6700

---

From: The Design Fort DTP <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 08:55:01 2003

Hi all,

I would like to introduce myself. My name is Herbert and I'm running the
"First Computer Museum of Nova Scotia Society" in Annapolis Royal, Nova
Scotia, Canada. I hope to connect with other collectors and people
interested in vintage computers here on that fine list. My special interest
lies in vintage computers from the 70s and early 80s. My collection is
constantly growing. I have a vast collection of manuals, books, software and
other vintage computer related stuff. I recently got a great donation of a
mint Heathkit H89 system, with all the manuals, disks etc. If somebody needs
scans from those manuals etc. let me know and I can see what I can do. I
also have a complete set of H8 manuals (H17 discdrive included).

Of course I'm looking for stuff, too. A copy of a Altair 8800 manual, a
Imsai 8080 manual and a Commodore PET (with the chicklet keys) manual for
example.

Greetings to you all
Herbert

---

From: The Design Fort DTP <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 09:33:01 2003

Hi all,

One thing I was always interested in - and the visitors in my Computer
Museum often want to know - is how many of the very first personal computers
are still in existence. By first PCs I mean the following machines:
Kenbak 1
Scelbi 8h
Mark-8
IBM 5100
Apple 1
Altair 8800
IMSAI 8080

I know it's quite difficult to figure out how many Altairs or IMSAIS are
still around. But a search on the Mark-8 e.G. (on the Internet) turned out
that there are only a handful still in existence.

Greetings
Herbert

---

From: steve <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 10:38:00 2003

here are my guesses....

--- The Design Fort DTP <[email-masked]>
> are still in existence. By first PCs I mean the
10-20
> Scelbi 8h
25
> Mark-8
Mark-8 was a set of plans and boards, so its hard to
define what a "Mark-8" is (would a set of boards
count? or does it have to be assembled???)
> IBM 5100
no idea
> Apple 1
50
> Altair 8800
500 (a,b,bt)
> IMSAI 8080
1000

again, just wild guesses.
steve

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 11:30:00 2003

> that there are only a handful still in existence.

The machines that show up on the web can at best only be assumed to be a
fraction of those actually in existence.

As far as Apple-1's, I have been tracking them for several years and have
located 27 throughout the world.  I estimate that there are no more than
50 in existence.  The actual number may be much less.

As far as the Kenbak 1, the only one I know of is in the Computer History
Museum's collection.  There might be another on display in another museum
somewhere in the world.

There may well be dozens of forgotten Mark-8's in various states of
assemblage sitting in basement workshops or attics all around the US.  The
Scelbi 8H is probably a bit more obscure.  Perhaps less than 50 of those.
This is just a wild assed guess.

There are hundreds of IBM 5100's, and hundreds (if not thousands) of
Altair 8800's and IMSAI 8080's.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 11:33:00 2003

> > are still in existence. By first PCs I mean the

There were only 40 made (interestingly in Brentwood, California, just 30
minutes north of where I live in Livermore).

Here's a brief article:

http://www.pretext.com/mar98/shorts/short3.htm

I can stretch my imagination and believe that 10 may still be around, but
certainly not 20.

> 500 (a,b,bt)

Move it over one decimal place to the left.  From what I know, about
50,000 Altair's of all models were produced.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 12:47:01 2003

> 50,000 Altair's of all models were produced.

Math check: move the decimal RIGHT (i.e. at least 5,000).

(Thanks, Robert ;)

--

---

From: "Charles E. Fox" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 15:13:01 2003

>that there are only a handful still in existence.

Hello Herbert:

         I have a 5100.  Someone was gathering information on the serial 
numbers a few years ago, but I don't know what his results were.

Cheers

                 Charlie Fox

                                 Charles E. Fox Video Production
                                         793 Argyle Rd.
                                 Windsor Ontario Canada N8Y 3J8
                                 519-254-4991    [email-masked]
                                 Check out the "Camcorder Kindergarten"
                                         at http://chasfoxvideo.com

---

From: "Keys" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 15:38:00 2003

Where's your museum located ?

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 16:23:58 2003

Herbert,

   I think you'll find that there are a good number of Altairs, 5100s and Mark-8s still around. I personally owned two Altairs and a 5100 up until last year. There are a GOOD number of people on this list that Mark-8s, Altairs, 5100 and IMSAIs.  Have you checked Steve Gabaly's Altair register? He been trying to put together a list of all the existing Altairs.

    Joe

---

From: steve <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 16:26:01 2003

> 50,000 Altair's of all models were produced.

50K? I doubt it, I have seen many Altairs and I think
the highest serial number was around three thousand
something (8800 and 8800A's),lets say 6K were made, I
find it hard to believe that MITs made another 44,000
B's and BT's by mid 1978 when the line was
discontinued. BT's were introduced in, what, late 77
after MITS was sold to Pertec. The line was
discontinued in less then a year because of lack of
sales (many better options were available at this
time). So I must assume not many BT's were sold, but I
have no serial number data to confirm this. I have
only seen 5 or so and most serial numbers were in the
hundreds, I think I saw one in the thousands.

I would guess not more then 10K were ever made (all
Altairs including the 680,Attache and Sherwood). If
you (or anyone for that matter) has serial number data
that disagrees with this conclusion please feel free
to correct me! 
steve

---

From: Joël Weber <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 16:29:00 2003

bonjour, je cherche les exemplaires suivants, alors si celà vous tombe entre
les mains, faites moi un petit signe (meme s'ils ne fonctionnent pas!):
- 5100 (ibm)
- minicomputer (mark-8)
- altair 8800 (mits)
- ddp-516 (honeywell)
- apple 1 (apple)
- system I/II/III (cromemco)
- Z-1 (cromemco)
- Apple II ( Apple)
- pet 2001 (commodore)
- p6060 (olivetti)
- terminal processor (tei)
- abc 80 (luxor)
- apple II+ (apple)
- pet 200 (commodore)
- pet 30XX (commodore)
- Apple III (apple)

voila pour le moment, biensur si vous en avez d'autres... je suis tjr
intérrésé! ;-)

hello, i search the fallow computers:

- 5100 (ibm)
- minicomputer (mark-8)
- altair 8800 (mits)
- ddp-516 (honeywell)
- apple 1 (apple)
- system I/II/III (cromemco)
- Z-1 (cromemco)
- Apple II ( Apple)
- pet 2001 (commodore)
- p6060 (olivetti)
- terminal processor (tei)
- abc 80 (luxor)
- apple II+ (apple)
- pet 200 (commodore)
- pet 30XX (commodore)
- Apple III (apple)

and more if you have, i'm interested in all.....

merci / thanks !

joel weber

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 17:00:01 2003

> that disagrees with this conclusion please feel free

I don't have serial number data to correct you with, but keep in mind
that MITS was notoriously "odd" with regards to serial numbers.  I'm not
sure what internal meaning those numbers ever had.

I read an article that said that the 8800 supposedly sold 10k units in
the first year (I'm not sure how many were delivered, or how many of the
kits were completed versus scrapped or cannibalized for parts).  The
8800a and b lines were similarly successful, give or take, with the Bs
being more so because of their higher quality.  I don't know jack about
the numbers for 680s, Attache's etc.

10k sounds a bit low, even if 50k might be a bit high.

Erik S. Klein
www.vintage-computer.com

---

From: Martin Scott Goldberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 17:31:00 2003

I have an Imsai I rescued from the uninversity garbage actually.  It's
missing the processor card but has about 5 or so other cards in the bus.
Also got a large dual blue box 8" floppy drive unit with it. 

So count me on the listing of what's out there. ;)

By the way, if anyone on the list has an extra processor card for it
please let me know.

Marty

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 18:06:00 2003

> Have you checked Steve Gabaly's Altair register? He been trying to put
> together a list of all the existing Altairs.

I just did a cursory web search and couldn't find this register.  I've
got several Altairs (2x8800, 8800a and 8800bt + drives, docs, software,
etc.) that should be listed.

Erik S. Klein
www.vintage-computer.com

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 19:53:00 2003

> etc.) that should be listed.

That site went defunct a while ago.

--

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 20:13:37 2003

Unfortunately I don't have the URL for it on this computer. However Steve is the one that was selling Mark-8 kits on E-bay recently. You should be able to contact him via his E-bay auctions.

    Joe

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 20:43:01 2003

Hmm... _A GOOD number?_ Anyone care to chime in with a head count? For 
years now I've been asking visitors to my web site for any Mark 8 
stories they may have. I've heard from a few, certainly less than 
fifteen, but most no longer have one. I only have knowledge of five 
originals (built in the day, as it were) and of those, only three are 
operational. I know that other list members have built their own more 
recently, but I have not been tracking them.

I would love hear how many list member have a Mark 8: 1) Original, built 
before, say 1980, with Techniques boards 2) Original, pre 1980 +/-, 
built any way at all, and 3) Recent construction, of any construction 
method. Also, is your Mark 8 still operational?

-Bryan

P.S. Steve Gabaly's web site is http://mark8.obtronix.com/gallery/ (and 
has a link to my web site ;-)

Joe wrote:

>Altairs and a 5100 up until last year. There are a GOOD number of people on this list that Mark-8s, Altairs, 5100 and IMSAIs.  Have you checked Steve Gabaly's Altair register? He been trying to put together a list of all the existing Altairs.

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 20:47:00 2003

> That site went defunct a while ago.

That's too bad.

At least he's still got the http://www.altairmanuals.com/ site running.
. .

   Erik

---

From: "Lawrence Walker" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Apr 11 17:42:32 2003

Glad to see another Canuck on the list. Actually there's
a considerable number of us on the list as well as some 
lurkers. I've been acquiring old computers for some years
and was part of a failed endeavor to start a museum in 
Toronto. A couple of years ago I retired to central 
Manitoba with my considerable collection. I also have an
H/Z 89 needing repair and an H17 but unfortunately no 
software or docs. From the sticker on the side I suspect 
it was used by the successful canadian Mt. Everest 
climb in 1982. Found it outside a church in central T.O.
When I do get to it on my to-do list I might call on you, as
well as the list's emminent Tony Duell of course.
 Possibly one day there might be a repository of stuff from
the considerable contributions made by canadians to 
computer history. You might take a look at Poulsson's
Timeline of Computer History which is on the net and
a book I've yet to find, "Knights of the New Technology - 
The Inside Story of Canada's Computer Elite, by David 
Thomas, 1983.

Lawrence

On 8 Apr 2003, , The Design Fort DTP wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> I would like to introduce myself. My name is Herbert and I'm
> running the "First Computer Museum of Nova Scotia Society"
> in Annapolis Royal, Nova Scotia, Canada. I hope to connect
> with other collectors and people interested in vintage
> computers here on that fine list. My special interest lies
> in vintage computers from the 70s and early 80s. My
> collection is constantly growing. I have a vast collection
> of manuals, books, software and other vintage computer
> related stuff. I recently got a great donation of a mint
> Heathkit H89 system, with all the manuals, disks etc. If
> somebody needs scans from those manuals etc. let me know and
> I can see what I can do. I also have a complete set of H8
> manuals (H17 discdrive included).
> 
> Of course I'm looking for stuff, too. A copy of a Altair
> 8800 manual, a Imsai 8080 manual and a Commodore PET (with
> the chicklet keys) manual for example.
> 
> Greetings to you all
> Herbert

lgwalker@ mts.net

---

From: John Tinker <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 20 17:24:00 2003

I've got a Scelbi 8h. I've read that Steve Ciarcia also has one. I'd be interested in 
hearing about any others that people may know of.

Thanks,
John Tinker

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue May 20 20:39:00 2003

Pictures! ...Must have pictures!

-Bryan

---

From: John Tinker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed May 21 04:50:00 2003

Pictures of Scelbi #4100-0015:
http://schema-root.org/museum/electronic/computer/_jft/scelbi/

John Tinker

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed May 21 17:30:01 2003

Nice...! I've never seen the rear or underside views before, are those 
tube sockets original equipment?

-Bryan

---

From: John Tinker <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed May 21 18:54:00 2003

Actually, they're not tube sockets, but 11 pin relay sockets, for I/O. 
-- JT