Subject: Re: Teletype

From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 18:07:53 2003

>From: [email-masked]
>
>> >Maybe. Does the Model 33 work correctly when switched to 'local'? If not, 
>> >then you certainly have problems in the Teletype. If it does work in 
>> >'local' mode, then you might still have problems in the Teletype, but 
>> >problems with the interface are also possible.
>> 
>> Hi
>>  It is also possible that he has the wrong speed gears/motor.
>> A 60Hz motor will run in local with 50Hz connected but the
>> Baud rate to the outside will be wrong.
>
>That was one of the 'problems in the Teletype' that I was thinking of. I 
>suspsect the easiest kludge for this these days is to fiddle with the 
>clock at the computer interface end, and run the whole thing at 91.667 baud
>
>-tony
>

Hi
 One could buy a new pulley and add some additional capacitance
to the motors capacitor and it might work well at 50Hz. I don't
think I'd run it too long without the capacitor increase. They
run the motor hot at 60Hz. It'd be even hotter at 50.
Dwight

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 3 18:24:00 2003

>  One could buy a new pulley and add some additional capacitance

IIRC, the coupling between the motor and the rest of the mechnism 
consists of a pair of helically-cut gears on the end of the motor (one on 
the motor spindle, the other on a separate spindle). The driven gear is 
moulded integrally with a sprocket for a toothed belt that goes to a 
larger sprovket on the transmitter shaft.

The gears are almost certainly custom parts and would not be easy to get 
now (unless you know of a souce of Model 33 parts...). Making them would 
also be non-trivial, I think, at least in most home workshops.

> run the motor hot at 60Hz. It'd be even hotter at 50.

I thought that at least some of the Model 33 motors were used on both 50 
and 60 Hz, with just a gearing change. I know that UK Model 33s have 115V 
motors and an autotransformer in the stand -- if there was a 50Hz motor, 
I would have thought it would have been wound for 230V.

-tony

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 22:27:00 2003

Wouldn't it be so much easier to make a power inverter to run at 50 Hz 
and save all the time and expense of finding gears & etc. & etc.?? I 
have a power inverter that would be a simple cap change (two of them) to 
run 50 Hz. Output power is about 250 Watts now, maybe 175-200 at 50 Hz 
(or would it be more?)? How much power does a 33 take? Discuss...

-Bryan

>also be non-trivial, I think, at least in most home workshops.
<snip>

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Wed Jun 4 13:18:26 2003

> Wouldn't it be so much easier to make a power inverter to run at 50 Hz 

The problem is that many simple/cheap inverters have _horrible_ output 
waveforms. Induction motors (as used in the Model 33) don't like them, 
and actually, the inverters don't much like highly inductive loads...

> have a power inverter that would be a simple cap change (two of them) to 

I believe we actually want a 60Hz inverter here.

-tony

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 17:06:00 2003

The biggest problem is that induction motors draw three to four times 
the rated load on startup. Otherwise, a modified sinewave inverter would 
work fine. I have a 24 volt input, 120 v output, 60 Hz, continous 2500 
Watt modified sinewave, Trace inverter sitting on my bench if anyone is 
interested. It is rated to put out nearly 9000 Watts into an inductive 
load for 30 seconds, which is enough to start nearly anything, and has a 
built-in 50 Amp battery charger, voltmeter & etc. & etc...

-Bryan

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 10:02:00 2003

Seriously folks, I am going on a two week trip to sunny California later
this month and trying to find a couple of interesting stops that might
have something to do with classic computers. I'll be starting in San
Francisco and ending up in Los Angeles.

I plan a trip through Silicon Valley with a stop at NASA Ames. Anyone
have their schedule for the classic computer museum? Any other "must
see" places along the way? Does CHAC have a museum? Damn, just went to
the CHAC web site. Last updated in 11-12-1997?!? Now THAT is classic!! I
just gave um an earful
(politely).

Anyway, any suggestions that would bore my wife and daughter but make me
happy is welcome (hey, they get DisneyLand and Hollywood!)

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 11:30:01 2003

> happy is welcome (hey, they get DisneyLand and Hollywood!)
The tech museum, in San Jose is a must see, and your family might even enjoy 
it slightly, kids always did. 

There are a few computer salvage shops in the silicon valley, area if you have 
room in the car, there are a good way to kill a few hours of your time. 

You could always try and track down transmeta, corp. and see where linus 
torvalds works, but only if your a linux fan. and in the same genre, you 
could check out the silicon vallley Lug meeting and see if you get lucky 
Linus pops in to the meeting. which he has been known to do. 

Casa De Fruita, off highway 152 near gilroy, CA ... not computer related but 
cool over grown fruit stand... fun for the whole family 

And of course you have to drive through Gilroy for some major aroma therapy

Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since i 
moved to the mid-west. 

And to eat check out Chevy's mexican resturant... the kids love it because 
they have a machine that makes tortia automaticly... and they will out dough 
so the kids can play with so they stay quiet while adults enjoy a good meal 
("okay it's my favorite resturant") 

in Southern California, check out Bob's burgers, (anaheim, CA)  they have 
awesome Onion Rings and Fried Zuchini, and Pastrami Sandwitch. that 3 people 
could share and consider a good lunch, and cheap too.... 

Just a few thoughts...

James

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 13:45:00 2003

Thanks for your tip about the CHAC.

Be sure to look here:
>> http://www.computerhistory.org/bldg/ <<
Says it Juuust Opened!

John A.

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 13:54:00 2003

> it slightly, kids always did.

The Tech Museum sounds like a good idea. Thanks.

> Linus pops in to the meeting. which he has been known to do.

I like Linux, but don't think I want to track down Linus Torvalds. :)

> And of course you have to drive through Gilroy for some major aroma therapy

Oh yes, Garlic World in Gilroy is a must stop for us. We have been
several times and plan to stop this time as well.

> Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since i

Where is Fry's computer store?

> they have a machine that makes tortia automaticly... and they will out dough

We have a Chevy's right here in Greenbelt, Maryland, complete with
tortilla machine in full view. But at some point I probably will be up
for a shot of tequila.

> ("okay it's my favorite resturant")

Nice plug. If you ever come to the DC area, the Chevys in Greenbelt, MD
near Goddard Space Flight Center (where I work) is a nice one.

> could share and consider a good lunch, and cheap too....

I'm going to JPL at least one day while in the LA area, and Pasadena is
close
to Anaheim, so I might make it to Bob's for lunch.

> Just a few thoughts...

James, thanks for the suggestions. It is exactly what I wanted when I
asked on this list.

Eric

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 14:01:00 2003

WOW!! The place looks fancier than any new government building I've seen
as of late!

Thanks for digging deeper into CHAC. I think I'll make that a stop as
well.
Heck, now all the sudden my idle itinerary is full!

---

From: steven <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 15:11:00 2003

Weird Stuff in Sunnyvale is an interesting stop.
http://www.weirdstuff.com/sunnyvale/html/sunnyvale.htm

--- Eric Chomko <[email-masked]> wrote:

> see" places along the way?

---

From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 15:49:01 2003

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:

> WOW!! The place looks fancier than any new government building I've
> seen as of late!

Well, it's not a new government building.  That's the old Silicon
Graphics HQ building.  SGI sold it off to the CHM as part of their
attempts to stay afloat.  I hear the CHM folks got a great price for
it (dumpster diving on a grander scale).

-brian.

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 17:47:00 2003

The CHM just opened this past Monday and now conducts tours of "visible
storage" on Wednesday afternoons and every other Saturday (First and
Third, I think).  I've got some pictures from the grand opening up on
Vintage-computer at http://www.vintage-computer.com/chmopenhouse.shtml. 

Fry's is to be avoided as is any organization that makes it's living
effectively stealing from the general public.  :)

The Weird Stuff Warehouse is always fun, especially the "as-is" area out
back.

The Tech museum in San Jose and the Metreon in San Francisco are worth a
visit.

Enjoy your trip!

   Erik Klein
   www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum
   The Vintage Computer Forum

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Eric Chomko
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 7:56 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

---

From: "Dave Babcock" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:11:04 2003

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Chomko" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 7:56 AM
Subject: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

> have their schedule for the classic computer museum?

The Computer History Museum (www.computerhistory.org) is no longer at NASA
Ames but closeby in Mountain View.  It now has a permanent home at 1401 N.
Shoreline Blvd.  (one freeway off-ramp north of NASA).  In fact the grand
opening of the new location was just this past week.

The tour schedule is currently:
        Wednesdays at 1pm
        Fridays at 1pm
        1st & 3rd Saturdays at 1pm and 2pm

It's best to let the museum know you're coming so that enough docents will
be scheduled for that day  (http://www.computerhistory.org/about/tour/).

I'd second the suggestion of stopping at Fry's Electronics and The Tech
[Museum of Innovation].

Intel also has a museum on their history.  Sorry I don't know the hours.

Finally, depending on how far south you're planning to travel, there's
another computer museum just north of San Diego - The Computer Museum of
America (www.computer-museum.org).

Enjoy your trip.

Dave Babcock
Volunteer, Computer History Museum

---

From: Thilo Schmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:11:26 2003

>>> http://www.computerhistory.org/bldg/ <<

Yes, Michael Williams (the head-curator) mentioned it this
Wednesday at Konrad-Zuse-Symposium in Karlsruhe, Germany.

Looks like they have some *really* interesting exhibits... 
... but obviously no working Z22, else he wouldn't have come
to Karlsruhe and miss the opening-party of his museum ;-)

bye
Thilo

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 21:20:00 2003

snipped to save bandwidth

> > Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since
> > i moved to the mid-west.
>

www.frys.com

besure to check out local news papers... they usualy have 3 ad's per week at 
least they do in the Silicon Valley... you can find some pretty good bargains 
on new components... like ram and ide drives... 

 James

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 21:49:00 2003

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, jamesd wrote:

> > > Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly
> > > since i moved to the mid-west.
> >
> besure to check out local news papers... they usualy have 3 ad's per
> week at least they do in the Silicon Valley... you can find some pretty
> good bargains on new components... like ram and ide drives...

But...will it work in my VAX? ;P

-Toth

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 23:39:00 2003

jamesd wrote:

>> is Fry's computer store?
Heh, The finally used the frys.com url, It was procured after a 
protracted battle with a french-fry manufacture
in the 90's, It was unused for years after the court trial.
Jim Davis

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 23:45:00 2003

Erik,

Why do you suggest that Fry's is "effectively stealing from the general 
public."

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 00:14:01 2003

Mail List wrote:

> Erik,
>
> Why do you suggest that Fry's is "effectively stealing from the 
> general public." 

You will be treated like crap at all levels of any transaction at fry's. 
Expect, No, assume that
any advertised product will be out of stock, that the  pepsi machine 
will of be of  more help
then the sailsdroids. Don't even think about using a check, unless you 
have about an hour or
two to wait ( I AM NOT KIDDING ), Check all the packages, as frys simply 
returns
defective and returned products to the shelves. Returns? Plan on 
spending the day.
Need I say more?
Jim Davis

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 00:41:00 2003

> Why do you suggest that Fry's is "effectively stealing from the
general 
> public."

Fry's has several "policies" in place (or used to, I haven't been in
that crap-hole for years) that fall under that category.

They have shrink-wrap machines at every location and often re-wrap
returns to re-sell as new - even those reported as defective by the
customer returning them!  (Hearsay from an ex-employee followed up by
observing stacks of items that, to me anyway, were obviously re-wrapped)

They deliberately make returns difficult so that people who buy recycled
junk often won't bother to try getting their money back.  If they do,
the item's usually just head back to the shelves anyway.  (Again, told
to me by an ex-employee who I consider reliable)

I remember purchasing RAM for an old P-III there once.  The first SIMMS
were bad so I brought them back.  They tossed them on a tester at the
returns desk (which took 45 minutes to get to) and told me "Yup, they're
bad."  Not one, not two, not even three, but ALL FOUR that I purchased
were defective.  The returns clerk put them in a large parts bin already
full of similar items and, I'm fairly certain, eventually put that bin
back in the stock area.  I asked if I could do an exchange and test the
replacements before I left and was told that store policy prohibited
that. . . !!!

I consider those things to be theft.

The fact that I haven't met a Fry's employee who wasn't a drooling idiot
(my friend was obviously too bright for the place! :) and the fact that
the store always seemed to be out of the single thing you came in for
always bothered me as well.

One fun thing to try, by the way: When the Fry's bonehead at the guarded
exit tries to search your bag, just walk on by.  As it turns out they
can't legally search your property (which the bag is the moment you pay
for it) unless they have some reasonable belief that you are stealing.
If they don't have this and detain you it is the equivalent of false
arrest.

I'm not alone, by the way:

http://www.nonmundane.org/~dspisak/frys/frys.html
http://www.accesscom.com/~dave6592/
http://billzhouse.com/rants/frys.html
http://www.doofus.org/frys/ ("What Fry's won't tell you is that you do
not have to let them inspect your bags. In fact, it is illegal for Fry's
to detain you to search your property without first charging you with
shoplifting.")
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/05/cov_21feature2.html ("And
the horror stories are not just anecdotal. Most of Fry's Silicon Valley
stores have "unsatisfactory" records with the Santa Clara Better
Business Bureau for not responding to complaints -- although they do
appear to resolve complaints reported to the Santa Clara County district
attorney.")

The list goes on, I just wish Fry's wouldn't.

   Erik Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Mail List
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 9:40 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

Erik,

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 01:04:00 2003

Hello Jim,

I didn't know you were having those kinds of problems there. When I was
in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's there yet, so I loved to 
stop
into one every time I went on a training assignment up to the LA and Bay
areas. With all the stuff they had there, I was like a kid in a candy store.

Best Regards

At 10:05 PM 6/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
>any advertised product will be out of stock, that the  pepsi machine will 
>of be of  more help
>defective and returned products to the shelves. Returns? Plan on spending 
>the day.
>Need I say more?
>Jim Davis
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 01:24:00 2003

Mail List wrote:

> in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's there yet, so I 
> loved to stop
See Erics reply. My experiences are at the Wilsonville store in Oregon. 
Every time
I go there I swear I won't go back. But, Being a "JERK", I return every 
year or so
for the $19 CDR/W drives and $99 19" monitors. Feh!
Jim.

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 01:42:01 2003

> Mail List wrote:
> 
> > Hello Jim,
> >
> > I didn't know you were having those kinds of problems there. When I 
> > was in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's 
> there yet, so I 
> > loved to stop into one every time I went on a training 
> assignment up 
> > to the LA and Bay areas. With all the stuff they had there, 
> I was like 
> > a kid in a candy store.
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> >
> >
Fry's is definitely a mixed blessing.  A great store to buy that hard to
find connector or IC, but not necessarily to buy current PC stuff.  If
you are careful, you shouldn't have many problems.  I have made perhaps
150 purchases there and only had one problem with some SDRAM.  And so
what if they don't have the "legal" right to inspect your bag at the
door, if it deters shoplifting (a cost that all of us bear) then it's
worth the few seconds wait.

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 01:46:00 2003

This is too funny, I wrote my diatribe before I saw Eriks reply. 
Believe, Frys SUCKS.
But you can sometimes get lucky, if you  have time, patience and LUCK.
Everything  Erik wrote is true.

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 01:59:00 2003

> for the $19 CDR/W drives and $99 19" monitors

Holy cow, those seem like very low prices. Is the quality
of the products very good? I hope you don't have to get
another one every year because they only last for a year?

At 11:15 PM 6/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
>>in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's there yet, so I loved 
>>to stop

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 02:07:01 2003

Wayne M. Smith wrote:
<snip>
Unfortunatly, frys ( at least in oregon ) hasn't restocked their 
component inventory in quiite a while.
The component / test instrument section consists of 2 small isles of 
dusty, yellowing bags of dips,
leaded discretes and  obsolete, overpriced scopes and dmms. It appears 
that fry's original
component market has disappeared and been replaced with PC-centric junk 
and consumer toys.
:-(
Jim

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 02:26:00 2003

> another one every year because they only last for a year?
I'm reading this on a  philips 109S monitor I believe I paid $139 last 
year,  It will even work at
1900X1440 but I need reading glasses to see the well defined but timy 
font. I usually use it at 1280X1024.
I also purchased a pixi ( cheap ) monitor that I have used for over 2 
years with no problems, paid $99
both are 19", both at frys. The Oregonian sports back page has a full 
page every day, today,:
30 gig maxtor drive $29.95 (  30$ rebate ) 256 MB DDR2100 $19.99 ( 
rebate )128 Meg flash 29.99
CD/RW 35$. , flat  screen monitor, 19" .25 DP 1600X1200  149$
Jim

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 02:38:00 2003

> another one every year because they only last for a year?
I have had CDR/W drives survive less then a year, beware. And not only 
from frys
Worst screw? PC HEIDEN

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 03:29:01 2003

Hello Erik,

http://www.nonmundane.org/~dspisak/frys/frys.html
http://www.accesscom.com/~dave6592/
http://billzhouse.com/rants/frys.html
http://www.doofus.org/frys/
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/05/cov_21feature2.html

I read a few of those pages.

As far a the fellow that didn't like not being able to return opened software.
If they didn't have that policy in place, there would be many instances of
people buying software, taking it home and copying it, and then attempting
to take it back for a refund. A certain percentage of bad apples abuse the
privilege, and the software industry had to do something about it. If he wants
to know if a program is any good before he bought it, he should read the
magazine reviews first. It's unfortunate that software selling stores don't 
have
a system set up in the stores with the software packages already loaded on
a test system where people could try it out there before buying. I thing 
Egghead
did something like that at one time.

As far a delays caused by wanting to pay by check, that happens at the grocery
store too. I just cringe when waiting in the checkout line and I see 
someone ahead
getting out their check book. If you want to get through the process 
faster, get a debit
card for your checking account. It really makes it so much easier. With the 
guy that
wrote that they didn't want to take his check because he had bounced a 
check a few
months earlier, no wonder. I wouldn't want to take a check from someone 
that bounced
checks either.

As far as having purchases examined before leaving, they do that here too
at CompUSA. The computer stores probably have a bad shoplifting problem.
Many cutting edge computer parts are significant value, small package items.
I just show them my bag and receipt, and move on.

As far as being out of stock on the advertised item. Happens at CompUSA
here too. It kind of sucks the way they do that, but I heard from the CompUSA
employee that when CompUSA would advertise a sale price on something
like a SIMM, they would only have a very limited number ( like six or seven
pieces in an area with a population in the million+ range ) of them at each 
store.
It's their "loss leader" ( is what I'd heard it called in the retail 
market), advertised
to get people into the store. There is a line that forms before opening 
time on the
day the ad flyer comes out in the newspaper. When I heard that, I just quit
bothering with it. It wasn't worth wasting the time, just to save a few bucks,
especially when it would usually be for naught unless you went through all that
extra hassle for it.

One thing I finally got completely fed up with is the rebate stuff. Last 
two things
I got from CompUSA, I sent in the rebate forms and copies of the receipt, and
they sent me back a card saying they were denying issuing the rebate because
they didn't get a copy of the sales receipt. Guess what, the rebate form was
stapled to the copy of the sales receipt. If they got the one, they most 
definitely
got the other. Then they have these 800 numbers to call that result in naught.
It's beginning to seem they're doing all that on purpose. Throw so many hurdles
in the way of getting the rebate, that many just give up and never receive 
them.
On the last two things I bought at CompUSA, I think there is still one rebate
check I didn't receive, but it's been so long, I'm not even sure about it 
anymore.
If they don't have instant rebates at the cash register anymore, they can 
take their
rebate and shove it. I'm surprised there aren't class action lawsuits and 
federal
investigation into the management of these rebate programs.

As far as hardware returns, there was a guy around here, who eventually worked
as a tech for some small clone shops, that would build or upgrade computers
for his family, neighbors, etc. I heard he plugged the power connector to a 
floppy
drive on backwards, burned out the drive's electronics, and then took it 
back to the
computer store where he got it, knowing it was his own fault for burning it 
up, just
telling them that it didn't work, to get another, instead of accepting 
responsibility
for his own actions. I heard of another guy pulling a board out of the 
computer while
it was powered up, damaging the motherboard. Selling computer parts to the
general public can be a problem. Warranties are for defects in material or 
workmanship,
and are not meant to cover failures caused by negligence or abuse. I even heard
of a person that would intentionally damage the heads in his VCR with a 
screwdriver
just before the warranty period was up, just so he could go get another 
unused unit.
These stores that sell computer parts to the general public have to deal 
with those kind
of problems every day.

Then, it happens often that a part that is reported bad, isn't really bad 
at all. Sometimes
it's user difficulties instead. And sometimes it's incompatibility issues. 
I had a Viking
modem one time that just would not work in one particular motherboard, but 
worked
perfectly in another motherboard, though other modems would work perfectly 
in that
first motherboard. I've seen many other instances of many pieces of 
hardware not working
when it would work perfectly under other circumstances.

I'm so glad I don't mess with computers for home users anymore.

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 03:45:01 2003

> I have had CDR/W drives survive less then a year, beware. And not only 
Sorry, Getting totally OT here, PC HEIDENS was considered the "SOUP 
NAZI" of the reseller
world. Found their way to bankrupcy  last year.. Har Har. NO CHIPS FOR  
YOU! What Frys
does for the socialist/1984 idea of retail, PC Heidens wildly redefined 
the idea that the customer
comes first. Never had a problem taking back stuff to frys ( not without 
a day long wait in line  ).
PC Heiden accused you of breaking it, if they took if back  would keep 
it for months and then
deny it was broken, and accuse you of fraud, cuss, never refund, bla bla 
bla. Amazing.
Jim

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 04:36:00 2003

Hello Jim,

Although not in your case, all those things probably did happen, ie customers
breaking the parts, customers attempting to pull some kind of fraud, and way
too often. Looks like he had difficulty handling it. Now I see he is 
starting a new
business selling cables.

Around here there have been so many computers stores open up and end up
failing. They come and go like sand on the beach.

I'm so glad I don't have anything to do with PC's and home users anymore.

That "SOUP NAZI" thing is kind of humorous though.

http://www.pkmeco.com/seinfeld/nazi.htm

here's another humorous one ...

http://www.macopinion.com/columns/arena/060898.html

Best Regards

>Jim Davis wrote:
>Sorry, Getting totally OT here, PC HEIDENS was considered the "SOUP NAZI" 
>of the reseller
>comes first. Never had a problem taking back stuff to frys ( not without a 
>day long wait in line  ).
>PC Heiden accused you of breaking it, if they took if back  would keep it 
>for months and then

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 06:22:00 2003

> I'm so glad I don't have anything to do with PC's and home users anymore.

The funny thing, they were 2 minutes from rohnler acres, Intel's biggest fab
and surrounded by uncounted design, fab and software co.s, I  wasn't aware
of the joint until a geezer engineer and I went to get some quick memory 
one day.
Still, a wouldn't do business with Pat Heiden.

---

From: James Rice <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 09:12:00 2003

We purchase about $50-60k a year from Fry's.  We can buy HP printers 
there cheaper than from Ingram Micro or Tech Data.  I usually never have 
a problem with Frys, but they are scared to screw with me.  We purchase 
everything by company check and  they no longer check with the bank.  I 
got my bluff in by screaming to the store director and even got through 
to Randy Fry once.  After I talked to Randy, I haven't had one incident 
of them not being very polite or giving me exactly what I want.  A new 
CSM tried to stop me buying more than the "limit one per customer" CD-R 
blanks last year and the supervisor told them to ignore the limit and 
give me what ever I needed.

That being said, I never buy anything that has been opened or even looks 
like it's been opened.  I never buy  ram or processors there or hard 
drives that are not in sealed factory packages.

James

> See Erics reply. My experiences are at the Wilsonville store in 
> Oregon. Every time
> I go there I swear I won't go back. But, Being a "JERK", I return 
> every year or so

-- 
http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 09:48:00 2003

On 2003.06.07 14:14 Thilo Schmidt wrote:

> this Wednesday at Konrad-Zuse-Symposium in Karlsruhe, Germany.
[...]
> Z22
Details?
-- 

tschüß,
           Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 10:52:00 2003

All that said you haven't convinced me that Fry's doesn't suck rocks.
Sure other stores have their problems and sure some stores have some of
Fry's policies but there is no place around that has the full compliment
of BS that Fry's provides, including reselling known-damaged returns (I
KNOW CompUSA, Best Buy and Circuit City, to name a few competitors,
won't do that)

Every one of the aforementioned stores has the same problems with the
bad apples on the consumer side, but none seems to have the contempt for
ALL of their customers based upon the inconsiderate or fraudulent few.

   Erik Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Mail List
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 1:24 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

Hello Erik,

...

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:17:00 2003

Hello Jim,

My favorite place to get PC parts is "The Chip Merchant" in San  Diego.

http://www.thechipmerchant.com/

When I was in San Diego, I used to go there in person to get parts. They
are in the Kearny Mesa area of San Diego. After I moved back to the east
coast, I still mail ordered from them. I haven't gotten anything in at least a
couple of years now though. They always had the better grades of PC parts
available too.

Best Regards

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:28:00 2003

> it slightly, kids always did.

The TechMuseum is one of those places that you go away from feeling
cheated.  Go to the Exploratorium in SF instead.

> Linus pops in to the meeting. which he has been known to do.

Can you say "restraining order"? ;)

> cool over grown fruit stand... fun for the whole family

And Buffalo Burgers!  Yum!

> Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since i

Go to the one in Sunnyvale to see the Apple-1.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:37:01 2003

Hello Erik,

 > All that said you haven't convinced me that Fry's doesn't suck rocks.

I believe you. I haven't been to a Fry's in eight years now. We don't
have them here on the east coast. In that much time, things sure
could have gotten a whole lot worse there than I remember.

I really didn't like buying PC parts at Circuit City. I've just never tried
Best Buy yet. Not too thrilled with buying computer parts from Office Max
or Office Depot either. So I still have to pick up stuff from CompUSA,
clone shops, or mail order.

As I mentioned in a previous message, one of my favorite places for
PC parts is "The Chip Merchant" in San  Diego.

Best Regards

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:43:00 2003

> defective and returned products to the shelves. Returns? Plan on

And that's on a GOOD day!!!

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:52:00 2003

> observing stacks of items that, to me anyway, were obviously re-wrapped)

One fun game to play in Fry's is "Let's Try to Find a New, Un-opened
Package".

> always bothered me as well.

And I don't mean to sound racist, but it would be nice if they could hire
people that could properly enunciate the English language.  But I'm afraid
having them actually know anything about computers or electronics would
be too much to ask.

> If they don't have this and detain you it is the equivalent of false

I have never stopped for that clown and nothing in California law gives
them the right to detain you unless you either a) consent or b) they have
a reasonable suspicion as you've mentioned.  It is one of the rudest
retail practices I have ever experienced.  Other lame places like CompUSA
and some Home Depots have adopted this practice.  It's fun when the
Simulation Guard feels jilted when you just walk by them and they call
after you.  I usually tell them to get a real job.

> The list goes on, I just wish Fry's wouldn't.

You're not the only one, brother.  That they have managed to survive until
this day is one of the great Silicon Valley Mysteries (even more
mysterious than the Winchester Mystery House!)

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:54:01 2003

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Mail List wrote:

> to stop into one every time I went on a training assignment up to the LA
> and Bay areas. With all the stuff they had there, I was like a kid in a
> candy store.

That's typical of new shoppers and out-of-towners.  Larry Anderson and I
once escorted a group of Finnish classic computer nerds to Fry's and it
was like Disneyland for them.  You don't actually realize just how lame
Fry's is unless you live here and have gone there several times.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:56:00 2003

> worth the few seconds wait.

Maybe you don't mind the insinuation that you are guilty of something
until showing your receipt for someone to mark it with a highlighter
somehow magically admonishes you of any wrong-doing, but I do.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 11:58:02 2003

> another one every year because they only last for a year?

Just like with any retail establishment, they sucker you in with cheap
shit in the hopes that you'll buy other stuff while you're there.
Sometimes they offer good deals on good product, but the product is most
likely a bin of returns that they've re-packaged and put back out on the
floor.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 12:03:00 2003

> I read a few of those pages.
<...>

That's all fine and good but this is Fry's we're talking about.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 12:10:00 2003

> KNOW CompUSA, Best Buy and Circuit City, to name a few competitors,

Evil idea: buy something from Fry's, open it up, disconnect a few wires or
remove a few ICs, leave some sort of note inside, then put it back
together and into the package, mark the package in some discreet way, then
return it and tell the clerk it's broken.  Next day, go back to the store
and see if it's on the shelves.  Bring a news media crew with you.

--

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 12:12:01 2003

Hello Sellam,

 > You don't actually realize just how lame Fry's is unless you live here
 > and have gone there several times.

I'd generally have a chance to stop in there a few times a year for
several years in the early to mid 90's, but that was eight years ago.
In that much time, they may have gotten a whole lot worse than
I remembered.

Best Regards

---

From: "Peter C. Wallace" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 13:22:00 2003

>    The Vintage Computer Forum

I alway figure an ~$100 add-on for the "Frys experience" Then see if
what they have is still a bargain, Usually keeps me away...

Peter Wallace

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 13:33:00 2003

You guys are MUCH too easy on Fry's.

Yes, they do suck rocks.

> > Why do you suggest that Fry's is "effectively stealing from the 

Fry's does not have enough competence to "effectively steal".

The Fry's staff has a much lower competence level than the MEDIAN of the
general populace.  It's where people go to work who can't pass the
McDonald's written test.

It helps if you speak multiple languages, because there are few employees
who are really fluent in English.

Yes, it is true that the majority of stuff that gets returned to a store
isn't really broken.  But putting it back on the shelves without testing
it is inexcusable.

They started off as a grocery store (part of the Fry's grocery chain),
that added in a couple of aisles of electronics hobby stuff.  Then they
got rid of the stuff that hackers didn't want, like produce.  In those
days, they were great as a one-stop hackers' store - frozen food, candy,
soda, aspirin, chips of both types, . . .

Years ago, when they sold us dozens of sets of bad RAM for our 5150's,
their "tech support" people "tested" them and declared them "good".  We
explained that they DID NOT WORK in real, genuine OEM IBM PC's.  Their
"tech support" people thought that OEM was a brand name.  Eventually,
after several letters of complaint, cc'ed to the editor of Microtimes
(Mary Eisenstadt (sp?)), David? Fry himself came to us and replaced the
bad RAM.

> any advertised product will be out of stock, that the  pepsi machine 
It took my money and didn't give me my soda.  But the staff were even less
help than it.

After more than 20 years as an industry "leader", it wasn't until about a
year ago that they finally had enough in-house expertise to even HAVE a
website!

And don't forget the NOISE level!  Try a Saturday afternoon.  Do they
really need to have a barker WITH AMPLIFICATION peddling washing machines?

But we keep going back, because the prices are good, and it is a great
experience for tourists.

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred        [email-masked]

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 13:38:00 2003

> > cool over grown fruit stand... fun for the whole family
Yes!  Its smelly, but its fun.  Well, the first time.. I have driven
that road (between Mtn Vw and Long Beach... 101->152->5->710) way too
often to even notice anymore :)

Case is fun, though.

> Go to the one in Sunnyvale to see the Apple-1.
Hmm.. although Fry's in Sunnyvale is spacey (well, the new one, the
one on Arques), its not as much "fun" as the one in Palo Alto is.

A large puter(-ish) store, in western style.. yee-haw! :)

--f

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 13:47:00 2003

> > You will be treated like crap at all levels of any transaction at fry's.

Hmm... must be my cute appearance and sweet voice then, because I
was NEVER treated badly @ Fry's.  And jesus, at one point my friends
just drove to Fry's rather than my place if they were looking for me,
so I *did* spend some time there :)

Basically... everyone there wearing a Fry's badge is clueless. That
is a fact.  They're paid to walk around and take your cash, but not
anything else.  Get your facts right BEFORE walking in, or you'll
loose.

Oh, and indeed, their return policy means:

----------
[with heavy Indian accent]

Oooh, Sir, so it did not work?  Let me call my Supervisor,
and we will refund you then.

[throws unchecked package on stack of stuff]

Thank You, Sir, and shop here again!
----------

Later, I'd see someone with that stuff in a cart, returning
the packages to their shelves.. ;-)

Did I mention how I managed to get an ethernet card NOT working
by accidentally plugging it into my 220VAC ?  OK, so I didnt like
the friggin card and wanted to return it, but still.. they never
checked, and I am sure they just placed it back on the shelf...

But, however clueless they are, they were never rude to me, or let
me wait long.

[mental note: DO NOT pay with a Platinum card. you WILL be talking
 to a black-hatted security professional soon after, usually one
 from the Sunnyvale Police.]

All that said... I love to hang around there.  The automatic piano
in their Sunnyvale store rocks, and I have spent endless hours there,
talking to customers who were looking for wireless [ethernet] gear,
up to the point where I was asked by a staff member to help myself
to anything in their coffee shop ;-)

--fred

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 13:48:00 2003

> You guys are MUCH too easy on Fry's.
NO NO NO!

With the right attitude while going in there, it can be a blast!

--fred (regular camper @ sunnyvale, paloalto and huntington beach stores)

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 14:09:00 2003

Hallo Fred,

 >  from the Sunnyvale Police.]

Why is that?

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 14:18:00 2003

>You guys are MUCH too easy on Fry's.

Pretty much.  Especially given how the prices, at least up here have gone up.  When Fry's opened their Oregon store, they had really good prices, often better than the local hole in the wall PC shops.  When DVD's started to hit mainstream, they had really good prices.  Now overall, a trip to Best Buy is more worth my time.  For us, it's a long trip, and the last time we went, which was a month or two ago, after over 9 months, the prices sucked!

There are some simple rules though to make your buying experience better.
1. Know what prices should be on stuff!
2. Have a reason besides Fry's to be in the area (In our case, first we visit my Grandmother, and we finish it off by going to a resturant that we like).
3. Only buy new merchandise (or a least try to).
4. Only go when there is a bunch of stuff you're looking for.
5. Don't buy anything there that you might want to return (though I must admit, they were very easy to deal with the one time we returned something).
6. Don't get sucked in by their sales!  Do they ever have enough sale HD's in stock?
7. Know what the competition in the area sells the same stuff for!  In other words know what prices should be on stuff!

			Zane

-- 
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| [email-masked] (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 14:20:00 2003

>  >  from the Sunnyvale Police.]
'cos they, smart as they are, will assume there is no way you, at
your age, could possibly have one, legally. :)

.. which 'd result in them yelling 'super!' and boom, there you
are.

--f

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 14:29:00 2003

> your age, could possibly have one, legally. :)

at MY age??

Go there for the ENTERTAINMENT value.

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 14:44:00 2003

> > your age, could possibly have one, legally. :)
Well, when I went there.  And, I look young, that didnt help.

Fortunately, my bank is right across the street there, so a quick
call and their branch manager came in to Fry's, suggesting they
very quickly drop it and offer their apologies to their (bank's)
premier customer ;)  Whee!

They DID get the hint, by the way, I got the item for free, and
never had trouble thereafter.

But still.  If you look suspicious, or do something suspicious,
they usually dont go out of their way to make sure its innocent
before calling the c0ps.

--f

---

From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 15:30:01 2003

> A large puter(-ish) store, in western style.. yee-haw! :)

Some background for people who don't live on the U.S. west coast or
in Arizona, apart from Fry's being a cheap electronics reseller of
notorious repute, many (all?) or their stores have "themes."

My favorite (and I use that term loosely) Fry's has to be the one in
Burbank, California on Hollywood Way near the airport.  It's store theme
is that of 1950-60s sci-fi movies.  Visible from the parking lot,
there's a flying saucer crashed into the side of the building.  Inside
there are a variety of aliens, giant ants, a monster octopus, and some
GIs in an old army jeep that's been sliced in half by an alien's ray gun
blast.  The other ones I've visited are the ancient Roman themed one
down around Fountain Valley in Orange County and the Tiki/island themed
one near LAX.  I visited the San Diego one years ago now, but I wasn't
paying attention to anything apart from the electronic gear.

I've only had one defective purchase experience there.  I bought three
external drive enclosures from them.  Two of the three enclosures had
defective (and very cheaply made) power supplies, so I ended up taking
them all back and getting a refund.  I've avoided the place for at least
three or four years now; basically since the late 1990s when the DIY PC
upgrades side of things became mainstream.

Aside from the sometimes interesting decor, I find being stuck in a
Fry's to be a nauseating experience.  You've got sales clerks
incessantly chasing you around, asking if they can help you.  At least I
think they're asking to help me; half the time it's hard to know what is
being said.  Then you've got various senior clerks at POS terminals over
near the hard drive, motherboard, and memory aisles.  They tend to
struggle with basic data entry.  Good luck trying to have them check to
see if a particular motherboard or drive is in stock.  And god help you
if you're a clueless customer who accepts "technical advice" from one of
them.  If you make it a rule to avoid the store sales staff at all
costs, you'll have better luck with your purchase.

Then, at least in more recent years, there are the masses of rude and
technologically inept customers, pushing their way about the store.
Sometimes a cluster of them will pause for a moment, and the "guru" in
the bunch will loudly yammer away in misinformed techno-babble to the
other members in the shopping party.  Their heads bob in acknowledgement
and awe of their computer genius friend.

Come to think of it, the experience of shopping at Fry's (or CompUSA,
Best Buy, Radio Shack, or Circuit City), as a modern /cultural/
experience is probably one of the single greatest reasons that I've
turned to classic computing as a hobby.  The mainstream PC and Windows
mindset is one of general incompetence; those who subscribe to it
effectively accept that their hardware and software fails all the time
because "that's how computers are."

Bleh.

-brian.

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 15:42:00 2003

> notorious repute, many (all?) or their stores have "themes."
Yup.  The old building of the Sunnyvale store (their first) was
a giant chip :)  The new one is kinda themeless, methinks.

> one near LAX.
Yeah, the Fountain Valley one is fun.. its just hard to find, hidden
away inbeween various semi-deserted commercial lots and old buildings...
took me a while to find it,  but was a nice drive down the 405, soo..

> incessantly chasing you around, asking if they can help you.
Look back at them in anger, works miracles. "DO NOT DISTURB me when I
am enjoying myself" seems to be what they get from that look ;)

> At least I
> being said.
Yeah, they're never selected on their english-speaking capabilities,
that's for sure.  I once complained, and I got "yeah, well, he's not
from here, he's a foreigner." "Well, duh, so am I, so deal with it."

> Bleh.
Yes, and I find it amusing to wander between, sipping my coffee :)

--f

---

From: Thilo Schmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 17:42:04 2003

Looks like my first answer got to Jochen directly instead
of to this list, so again:

>> this Wednesday at Konrad-Zuse-Symposium in Karlsruhe, Germany.
At the FH-Karlsruhe the last fully working Zuse Z22 is preserved.
http://pl.attitu.de/zuse/Welcome.html
(the homepage is quite old, but so is the Z22)
And there was an article about this Z22 in c't magazine 20/2002.

Last Wednesday the 4. Konrad-Zuse-Symposium was held there
with various interesting talks. The agenda is somewhere
on the net you should find it by googling for 
"Konrad Zuse Symposium". 

Most visitors left shortly after the talks (only 4 visitors plus
the 2 operators where left in the computer-room), so there was
plenty of time chatting with the operators and listening
to the Z22. :-)

Yes "listening", there is a speaker connected to the accumulator 
of the Z22, you can actually hear the computer compute.
 
They even demonstrated a "music program" for it written in the
sixties.

If you want to visit the Z22 try to contact Helmut Kammerer or
Hans Baumann. They are the operators since 1962 and probably know
everything about the machine...

bye
        Thilo

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:44:00 2003

> a giant chip :)  The new one is kinda themeless, methinks.

The one in Burbank is a movie theme with a spaceship smashed into the
front and lots of movie monster sculptures inside.

The San Diego one is kind of dull. It used to be an Incredible Universe
(if anyone remembers those), and they still use Incredible Universe delivery
trucks presumably because Fry's is too cheap to repaint them.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- WWJD? JWRTFM. --------------------------------------------------------------

---

From: James Rice <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 19:11:00 2003

The two original Dallas stores were also Incredible Universe stores and 
the Fry trucks have only recently pulled the IU decals of the sides.  
You can still see the shadow of the emblems.  The third Dallas area 
store just opened a couple of weeks ago in Irving.  I haven't been over 
there  yet.  I was told it was in an old Home Depot.  The Arlington 
store has no theme except big boring warehouse staffed with clueless, 
rude people.  The Dallas store is all cows and Old West.  Funny, if they 
had done their homework, they would have realized that the Arlington 
store that is much closer to Ft Worth and all of the Old West stuff 
should be western themed and Dallas something else.

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 19:25:01 2003

Jeez, I don't know whether to avoid Fry's like the Plague, or to check
it out, out of sheer curiosity.

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 19:59:01 2003

> 7. Know what the competition in the area sells the same stuff for!

Almost every retail chain worth their salt (Best Buy, Circuit City, Good
Guys, et. al.) will price-match the competition.  Bring in a Fry's ad
and you can usually get the same deal with semi-competent English
speaking sales staff in a more organized store that isn't organized
crime.

If people would stop shopping at Fry's we could finally be rid of those
turkeys for good.

   Erik Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 12:14 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Fry's sucks. (was: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

>You guys are MUCH too easy on Fry's.

Pretty much.  Especially given how the prices, at least up here have
gone up.  When Fry's opened their Oregon store, they had really good
prices, often better than the local hole in the wall PC shops.  When
DVD's started to hit mainstream, they had really good prices.  Now
overall, a trip to Best Buy is more worth my time.  For us, it's a long
trip, and the last time we went, which was a month or two ago, after
over 9 months, the prices sucked!

There are some simple rules though to make your buying experience
better.
1. Know what prices should be on stuff!
2. Have a reason besides Fry's to be in the area (In our case, first we
visit my Grandmother, and we finish it off by going to a resturant that
we like).
3. Only buy new merchandise (or a least try to).
4. Only go when there is a bunch of stuff you're looking for.
5. Don't buy anything there that you might want to return (though I must
admit, they were very easy to deal with the one time we returned
something).
6. Don't get sucked in by their sales!  Do they ever have enough sale
HD's in stock?
7. Know what the competition in the area sells the same stuff for!  In
other words know what prices should be on stuff!

			Zane

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 20:19:00 2003

> somehow magically admonishes you of any wrong-doing, but I do.

Costco (formerly Price Club) started the practice around here (DC area).
They basically won't let you leave until your purchased inventory is
checked. Most of the time the checker simply marks it without really
looking.

---

From: passerm <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 20:32:00 2003

In the case of Costco and other "membership" stores, one could argue 
that by joining, one agrees to the practice. So there, I let them check 
my receipt on the way out. Anywhere else (e.g. Best Buy, CompUSA), no 
way. I've never had one press the issue--if I ever did, not sure I'd go 
through the money and trouble to file suit, but I certainly would 
return anything I had purchased that visit and not come back.

Now if the stores wanted to post a sign saying I'm subject to search on 
leaving, I'd just not come in. But search me on the way out, after 
having purchased items, with no prior agreement? No way. In fact, I'm 
angrier at the sheep that let them than at the stores themselves.

---

From: Jim <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 20:48:00 2003

How in the hell does it deter shoplifting?  At best, it indicates that 
the store management doesn't trust their 'cashiers' to actually charge 
you for what they put in the bag. If they want to "inspect" my 
purchases, they can arrest me and get a warrant. (Which ain't likely to 
happen because I refuse to patronize either company. Better prices and 
service mail-order.)

Jim

>>>And so what if they don't have the "legal" right to inspect your bag at the door, if it deters shoplifting (a cost that all of us bear) then it's worth the few seconds wait.

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 20:53:00 2003

>speaking sales staff in a more organized store that isn't organized

Now there is a good bit of advice!  I'd not thought about that!

		Zane

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 21:44:00 2003

> anything else.  Get your facts right BEFORE walking in, or you'll

   Nah, that ain't it.  My voice is trashed from yelling over unbaffled 
diesels, and my appearance often frightens young children, but I do just 
fine in Fry's.

   I've shopped Fry's in Austin and Dallas Texas, and in Phoenix (Tempe, 
really) AZ, and haven't ever had a problem.  I've gotten a couple of bad 
components, but overall, no worse than the local screwdriver shops. 
I've bought quite a few of their open-box specials and never gotten a 
dud.  Maybe it's a California thing?

   I will agree that expecting *help* there is nuts.  But folks, I bill 
in the neighborhood of $100/hr for knowing what to do with/to/about a 
computer.  Can I *really* expect a $9/hr sales kid to know more than I do?

	Doc

---

From: Marvin Johnston <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 22:38:01 2003

> computer.  Can I *really* expect a $9/hr sales kid to know more than I do?

There was an article in Forbes a few years ago about Frys. At that time,
they basically did not hire knowledgeable help because they felt their
customers would know more than they did.

Frys also had what was called the H&H factor, Hoops and Hurdles, when
having to return anything. I went with a friend of mine to return a bad
motherboard, and we were in the damn place for about 3 hours. I *WILL
NOT* buy anything there that stands a chance of being bad when I buy it
and having to be returned. On the other hand, I have never had a problem
buying passive components or hardware there.

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 23:33:00 2003

> buying passive components or hardware there.

   I keep hearing about that, and I've frankly never seen it.  The three 
times I've returned goods there, it took less than 20 minutes to get the 
replacement approved.  Once in Tempe and twice in Austin.

   Of course, I never throw away any packaging or receipts until I know 
I'm keeping the item, at least 30 days on new parts.

	Doc

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 00:33:00 2003

> Maybe you don't mind the insinuation that you are guilty of 
> something until showing your receipt for someone to mark it 
> with a highlighter somehow magically admonishes you of any 
> wrong-doing, but I do.
> 
I don't see how it can be an insinuation of anything when they do it to
everyone.

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 00:40:01 2003

Unaccustomed as I am to backwards threads . . . it deters just like "the
club" stops car thefts.  Anyone can beat the club who wants too (you can
saw through the steering wheel in 15 seconds and remove it), but why
bother when the next car over doesn't have one?  Even a small increment
of greater risk will send the thief to an easier target.  And, if you
don't shop there, why in the hell do you care?

> >>>And so what if they don't have the "legal" right to 
> inspect your bag 
> >>>at the door, if it deters shoplifting (a cost that all of us bear) 
> >>>then it's worth the few seconds wait.

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 00:43:00 2003

> > having to return anything. I went with a friend of mine to return a 
> > bad motherboard, and we were in the damn place for about 3 hours. I 
> > *WILL
I use the Burbank Fry's and have had 3-4 returns.  Never longer than 15
minutes.  But, I'm extremely charming.

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 12:23:01 2003

> With the right attitude while going in there, it can be a blast!

...induced with the right kind of drugs I suppose.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 12:27:01 2003

> never had trouble thereafter.

And this made you happy?  I would sue them for the time they stole from me
plus my bank manager's time, not to mention the public embarassment they
caused.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 13:16:00 2003

> it out, out of sheer curiosity.

Wear a condomn, just in case...

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 13:19:00 2003

> computer.  Can I *really* expect a $9/hr sales kid to know more than I do?

Perhaps not, but I sure the hell expect them to be able to say more than,
"I don't know".

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 13:23:00 2003

> replacement approved.  Once in Tempe and twice in Austin.

What a privelege.  In most any other store, you return the item and get a
new one in a few minutes, and there's no "approval" process.

Ok, I'm done saying bad things about Fry's now.  If it isn't obvious by
now that they suck, you haven't been paying attention.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 13:24:00 2003

> I don't see how it can be an insinuation of anything when they do it to

That somehow makes it OK?  I don't follow that logic at all :(

--

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 13:34:00 2003

> Perhaps not, but I sure the hell expect them to be able to say more than,

   Why?  Much better "I don't know" than "I don't know, but instead of 
admitting it, I'm gonna try to blow smoke up your butt."

   AKA CompUSA sales people.  Those idjits are at least as clueless as 
Fry's help, but seem to be fundamentally incapable of admitting it.

   They're kids, man.  They're working for dirt wages, and they get less 
training time than a janitor.  And I've found, at least at Fry's, that 
if I'm half nice to them, they'll try really hard to find somebody who 
does have an answer.

	Doc

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jun 9 14:03:00 2003

> admitting it, I'm gonna try to blow smoke up your butt."

When the question is, "Do you have any more of these?" or "Where is the
<x>?" (you know, simple stuff like that) then the answer "I don't know"
is not what I would consider "helpful".  They may as well not even bother
coming onto the sales floor.

> Fry's help, but seem to be fundamentally incapable of admitting it.

I don't shop there either so I wouldn't know.

> training time than a janitor. And I've found, at least at Fry's, that if
> I'm half nice to them, they'll try really hard to find somebody who does
> have an answer.

My mood turns sour only after asking them for help.  I give everyone the
benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.

--

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 01:51:00 2003

> > > something until showing your receipt for someone to mark 
> it with a 
> > > highlighter somehow magically admonishes you of any 
> wrong-doing, but 
> > > I do.
> > >
> > I don't see how it can be an insinuation of anything when 
> they do it 
> > to everyone.
> 
Well, at least you concede it's logic. 8-) My point was that to read an
insinuation into it you would have to believe, in a somewhat paranoid
way, that they think everyone might be stealing from them.

If you want to talk about long lines, waits and delays, how about the
DMV?

-W

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 01:52:00 2003

> >>   I will agree that expecting *help* there is nuts.  But folks, I 
> >>bill in the neighborhood of $100/hr for knowing what to do 
> >>with/to/about a computer.  Can I *really* expect a $9/hr 
> sales kid to 
> >>know more than I do?
> > 
> > 
> > Perhaps not, but I sure the hell expect them to be able to say more 
> > than, "I don't know".
> 
I keep hearing that "smoke up your butt" stuff ever since I moved to the
West Coast.  In the midwest, it was always "blow sugar up your ass" --
makes more sense if you ask me.

-W

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 01:57:00 2003

> sales kid 
> > >>to know more than I do?
> When the question is, "Do you have any more of these?" or 
> "Where is the <x>?" (you know, simple stuff like that) then 
> the answer "I don't know" is not what I would consider 
> "helpful".  They may as well not even bother coming onto the 
> sales floor.
> 
> >    They're kids, man. They're working for dirt wages, and they get 
> > less training time than a janitor. And I've found, at least 
> at Fry's, 
> > that if I'm half nice to them, they'll try really hard to find 
> > somebody who does have an answer.
> 
> My mood turns sour only after asking them for help.  I give 
> everyone the benefit of the doubt until they prove otherwise.
> 

The only place I ever ask for help is the hardware store, and then only
to ask what aisle something is in.  At Fry's I give the evil eye to
anyone that approaches.

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 02:28:00 2003

> makes more sense if you ask me.

   Well, OK, I was trying to dress down a little for company.  ;)

   I grew up in the oilfields, where the term is "poundin sand in your ass"

   Some folk find that expression to be rude.

	Doc

---

From: Dave Woodman <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 02:57:01 2003

>   Some folk find that expression to be rude. 

Here in the UK it's the animal lovers that would find this offensive...

    Dave.

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 03:06:00 2003

>makes more sense if you ask me.
My definition of "help" is a correct answer to "do you have X in stock" 
or "where is X located" or "what is the warranty on X".
I would expect a blank stare from questions like:  "can I use this 
network card with linux" or
"what kind of memory does this MB use"
Jim.

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 03:09:00 2003

>If you want to talk about long lines, waits and delays, how about the
Heh Heh, I live in a small town. The wait at  DMV is never more than  
5-10 mins. No stop lights either.
Jim

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 07:13:00 2003

> to ask what aisle something is in.  At Fry's I give the evil eye to

Yes!  That works, same here :)

--f

---

From: David Holland <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 07:39:00 2003

> > makes more sense if you ask me.

Never heard the sugar variation, have heard the smoke version, and I
live in Ohio.  (I'd presume Ohio counts as midwest. :-) )

>    Some folk find that expression to be rude.

Hmm, funny, I find that expression to be useful for certain vendor's who are
trying to blow "smoke up my......."  :-)

<jedi>
No, our CPU's don't have hardware issues
</jedi>

<David

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 08:31:01 2003

I was born and raised in NY and I'm far from soft.  I've done my fair
share of yelling at 57th street and Crazy Eddie as well as at the Fry's
dipshits.

The fact that the attitude is prevalent and service is for crap almost
everywhere doesn't make it right.

Those who tolerate it just add to the problem by supporting
"businessmen" who's attitudes are not customer friendly.

   Erik Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: Chuck Yerkes [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 4:58 AM
To: [email-masked]
Cc: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

I must address...

Some item by item below, but Fry's is no different than any store
in NYC I've dealt with.  It's just that californians, because
of the weather, are soft and weak and don't like their mellows
to be harshed.

J&R music was across the st. from my office, once upon a.  In
January, one of our programmers broke a leg or something.  Work
from home, he needed a modem (pre-DSL or even common ISPs).  I got
petty cash (4 $50 bills) and walked over with my morning coffee.
 "Sir! you can't bring that in here."
Ok, so I checked my coffee and got a ticket.  The counter girl
sort of laughed and rolled her eyes.
Went to the Mac area.  All the sales guys were clustered,talking
about their weekends.  I waited.  Some.  Then I fanned out the
$50's over my head and shouted,
"Hey, I need to spend this money; anyone want to help?"
I took the *second* guy who came over.
Then I dealt with the game of "pay at the counter and wait
10 minutes for the item to come up from the bowels."
Instead, I gave them money and left (checking out my coffee
to the bemusement of the new guy there) and got it before lunch.
"where were you sir? this has been waiting."
"I had better things to do that stand around for a handsized
 device you could have on the shelf."

We can chat about 47th St Photo and that the only time I saw
good customer service not in the model of "mock the customer
but he'll come to you because you're the cheapest" was when
they were in Chap 11.  Bought a Nikon from a Woman(!) who
was Iraqi and (most imp), was a professional photographer.
We had fun going through cameras and I ended up going to
an exhibit she had going.  Quite the change from "You stupid
american, here is the camera you should buy" that I got from
the Israeli who usually ran the counter.

I enjoy Fry's for some of that.  But yes, it is the 7th circle.

general 

> junk often won't bother to try getting their money back.
...

Well, they understaff for weekends.  Find me a store that's not
understaffed.  Return on a tuesday at 4PM and you stroll through.
You also get people who haven't been yelled at all day.

...
> I asked if I could do an exchange and test the replacements before
> I left and was told that store policy prohibited that. . . !!!
> 

I consider those to be poor management and bad customer service.
Those "in the know" know to look for the restock tag (a big white
sticker).  Somethings have several.  After returning a DOA power
supply (with 3! stickers), I insisted that it not be restocked
and the mgr concurred enthusiastically.  It went into a DOA bin.
I'm believing it stayed there.  (ironically an Antec PS - company
based not 5 miles from them (and Antec is the only PC PS I'll buy)).

> always bothered me as well.

Actually, esp of late, I found some good geeks there.  I pulled out
my Zaurus to look up a note and a sales guy jumped over to see and
asked me smart questions (do you have ssh for it, how's it with
blue tooth, etc).  I was looking for a 64MB thumbdrive that was
$5 after rebate (I *hate* rebates).  We couldn't find any.  He
went behind the cashier counter and found me one where someone
had perhaps picked up more than the per-person limit and the
cashiers put extra stuff in the restock carts.

But keep in mind the talent you get for sales floor at $7 +
commissions on certain items.  That's every where.

> If they don't have this and detain you it is the equivalent of false

The California Commercial Code declares that you own it when you
give them money.  CompUseLessA, Home Depot, Staples, Blood Bath & Beyond
all have the door guards...  Your locally owned merchants often
disguise them as nice folks standing there to say "thanks" and
"come again."  I don't open my bag.

  We all miss Canal St in NY (finding 1pF capacitors and cheap
'scopes and RAM for my Apple ][ in '88 made me happy).
  We all miss when the US was competitive in manufacturing, design
and even when calls to customer services went to US workers.

But face it, we get jobs designing software and we get to work
at counters (want Fry's with that?).  This is the future. At
*least* they are locally owned (bay area).

So keep shopping at merchants whose offices are 4000 miles from
your local economy.  Enjoy your Home Depot with knockoff quality
items from Milwaukee and Hunter, made especially for HD to meet
their low price needs.  Go to Starbucks and make sure your money
doesn't stay with someone nearby who might do business with you.
Save your coupons for frozen vegetables - those farmers markets
are so inconvenient.

< 40% of Walmart employees have benefits (the largest employer in the
US)
Next time you call in a mail order, ask if they have benefits.
Starbucks charges your $4 for a drink whose ingredients cost $0.10.
Coke costs less than $0.07/can to make.

You want service?  Spend that 20% more for your item at the
guy down the street.  It may be too late, the spiral means
that my local Mac store has been whacked by an Apple Corp. store.
(where I sent them running around looking for a CP/M card for
my "Apple 2" - the local store guy didn't fall for it).

Welcome to the new economy.  Fry's with that?

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 08:56:00 2003

> If you want to talk about long lines, waits and delays, how about the

I have a choice whether to use Fry's, whereas I am forced to use the
DMV.

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 08:58:00 2003

> makes more sense if you ask me.

Depends on the kind of smoke. It's CA, so most likely its the good kind
of smoke. :)

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 09:08:01 2003

> I have a choice whether to use Fry's, whereas I am forced to use the
No you're not.  Grab a bicyle :)

--f

---

From: Chuck Yerkes <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 10:37:52 2003

I must address...

...

...

< 40% of Walmart employees have benefits (the largest employer in the US)
Next time you call in a mail order, ask if they have benefits.
Starbucks charges your $4 for a drink whose ingredients cost $0.10.
Coke costs less than $0.07/can to make.

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 10:46:01 2003

"Wayne M. Smith" wrote:
> 
> > I'm gonna try to blow smoke up your butt."
> >
> I keep hearing that "smoke up your butt" stuff ever since I moved to
> the West Coast.  In the midwest, it was always "blow sugar up your
> ass" -- makes more sense if you ask me.

I've lived in Ohio for most of my life... I've only heard the phrase
used with smoke, never with sugar.  The other common variant is
"blow sunshine up your skirt".

-ethan

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 11:15:01 2003

> way, that they think everyone might be stealing from them.

Yes, I do believe that, otherwise why would they employ the practice?  The
fact is, they check everyone's receipt because they don't trust their
customers.  It's not my paranoia, it's theirs.

> If you want to talk about long lines, waits and delays, how about the

You know, in California, there's a law in the Vehicle Code that says that
no patron of the DMV shall have to wait in line more than something like 4
minutes.  It doesn't lay out what the repercussions are if you are made to
wait longer than that time, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 11:16:00 2003

>    Some folk find that expression to be rude.

It certainly sounds painful.

--

---

From: Roger Merchberger <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 12:19:00 2003

>"blow sunshine up your skirt".

Living in Michigan my whole life, I've heard it -> well, I need Linux-speak 
for this:

blow [smoke|sunshine] up your [skirt|ass]

(basically, any combo of the words in brackets, making for 4 different 
variations)

but like Ethan, I've never heard sugar come into play before.[1]

More OT Drivel for the list... ;-)
"Merch"

[1] I've also heard a variation with a bug crawling up one's arse - to mean 
that one was quite irritable that day...

--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
[email-masked]

What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

---

From: Philip Pemberton <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 12:59:00 2003

In message <[email-masked]>

> ...induced with the right kind of drugs I suppose.
Sounds a bit like Maplin.
Me: "Have you got any 74LS573s in stock?"
Salesdroid: "Forty seven at the warehouse"
Me: "Let me rephrase that - have you got any 74LS573s *here*?"
Salesdroid: "Er... Two. I'll just go check the drawer"
Salesdroid: [5mins later] "We haven't got any left."
Me: "How long would it take to get one from the warehouse?"
Salesdroid: "A week."
Me: "You're kidding..."
Salesdroid: "Nope."

*sigh*

Later.
-- 
Phil.
[email-masked]
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 13:38:00 2003

> customers.  It's not my paranoia, it's theirs.
They do, and so what?  I'm not stealing anything, so I cannot be
bothered by them wanting to check my bag in the hopes to find the
bad guys.  Similar to some woman freaking out at the (SFO) airport,
'cos one of the green boys wanted to search her bag.  If you have
nothing to hide, why bother screaming?

> wait longer than that time, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
DMV San Jose took me, oh, an hour.  SMV Santa Clara usually takes me
the same.. only DMV Mtn Vw takes me ~15 mins, sometimes longer. It
helps bunches if you actually speak (or, at least, understand)
English, unlike several people from apparently Korea who demanded
their gramma was given a drivers license.  Sadly, she didnt speak
a word of English, couldnt read it either (so much for the YIELD
sign..) and got into frantic-rage mode when made clear that she
could not get a license, as she could not even be asked her
name.

[MUCH later that day, I heard that they arrested her family for
threatening the girl at the counter...]

Lines are, afaik, a fact of life.  I don't like them, but cannot
change it, so.. dont really care.  Altho DMV *could* check out
how the folks at In-N-Out prcess lines of people wanting to be
served :)

--f

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 14:13:00 2003

> nothing to hide, why bother screaming?

Bzzt.  Wrong answer...police state mentality.  If you live in a
Constitutional Republic, please pack your bags and depart for the nearest
dictatorship immediately.  I wouldn't want the lack of concern you have
for due process and unlawful search and seizure to devalue my rights.

--

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 14:26:17 2003

On Tue, 10 Jun 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:

> dictatorship immediately.
Would Holland, being a Const. Monarchy, do? :)

> I wouldn't want the lack of concern you have
Indeed, you have Bush.  Enjoy the pain.

But lets not get into that totally offtopic stuff here.

--f

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 15:31:00 2003

> somehow magically admonishes you of any wrong-doing, but I do.

Well, this (deters shoplifting which is a cost to us all) is the
worst kind of pseudo socialistic propaganda I know. Yeah, let's
give up some freedom 'for the good of us all' where nobody can
prove that this brings any benefit?

I call myself a socialist, and as such quite in favour to accepting
the burden of society, but Socialism goes together with two other
basic concepts: Fredom and the rule of the law. Aren't these the
very basics of the 'American Sprit'?

Ok, I'm going way of topic, but I'm every time again astonished
how easy some give up their freedom without any need in emergency
at all. Freedom is nothing which is given by nature, but something
which has to be preserved every single day. It is not upheld by a
some huge military deficit or paying whomever, but rather defended
every day again agains atempts from _all_ sides. From government to
next door neightbors. And of course companies of any kind who belive
themselve to be above the law.

Plese, not ment to be personal, but I've experienced people in east
European contries, 20 years back, when they still hat their dictatoric
regime more aware, and more eager to defense their freedon than some
Americans.

Ok, back to computers, as a total foreigner I was somewhat impressed
by Fry's, but within less than 20 minutes I experianced the said
problems of incompetence on every level and ineffective organisation
- up to this weired concept of 'bag controll'. It did in no way stand
up to the legend of the name.

Gruss
H.

P.S.: Sallam, I may as well sign up atFry's for a job - no knowledge
of English, and all computer knowledge totaly outdated :)

--
VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/

---

From: Mike Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 16:50:00 2003

When its good at Fry's, its often great, but day to day I try every place 
else first. Fry's is a kind of Nerd Disneyland, its got a lot of space and 
a lot of stuff, and frequently the only place you could be pretty sure of 
finding 4 out of 5 odd items, but tack on to that long long checkout lines, 
employees that may or may not have a clue, ie everybody from Radio Shack 
shrugs, to people smart enough to feed you a total line of baloney and make 
it sound real.

Best thing I can think of for collectors are the swapmeets, ACP, TRW, and 
Cal Poly Pomona. ACP (6/15, 7/27), Cal Poly 3rd Sat of month, TRW last Sat 
of month.

Scrap places used to be fun, but I am about a year out of the loop, and 
places have changed.

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 16:52:01 2003

> worst kind of pseudo socialistic propaganda I know. Yeah, let's

Since the bag-check is AFTER the cash registers, it does nothing to deter
shoplifting.  The only thing that it has any effect on is preventing the
cashiers from giving unauthorized deals to their friends.

> up to the legend of the name.

Every visitor to the area should see it.  Once.

> of English, and all computer knowledge totaly outdated :)

You do NOT qualify.  Your English is too good, you can read and write, you
are too intelligent, you are polite, and you are aware that computers
existed before this year.

I do NOT expect computer expertise on the part of the sales staff.
But I expect them to know the layout of the store better than I do, and on
large ticket items (such as a TV), I expect them to be able to find the
manual for the demo machine.  And, if I ask for something that they don't
carry (such as 720K diskettes), I do not want to be told that what I'm
asking for does not exist. ("There isn't any such thing.  All diskettes
are 1.44 M")

---

From: Roger Merchberger <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 18:40:01 2003

Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words:

>at all.

Like our new Seat Belt law... I hurt no-one by not wearing it, but it costs 
me $100USD if I'm caught without it -- and there have been no documented 
studies _that anyone can show me_ [1] with regards to how many accidents 
people are maimed or killed *by seat belts*, who would be alive or less 
injured had they not worn them.

My brother is still kicking because twice he defied the law -- on 2 
occasions, he would be dead if he'd worn his seat belt...

And yes, I don't think it should be a crime to commit suicide, either -- 
it's my life![2]

>regime more aware, and more eager to defense their freedon than some

Personal or not, you're quite right. Agree or disagree with the war, I 
*still* see so many people blame the troops for it -- it's not their fault! 
All they can do is the best they can...

... and yet, the "support the troops" movement for some people is a bit too 
strong as well -- here in the US there's a huge "push" to wear a yellow 
ribbon to show support for the troops -- nevermind that the song this comes 
from was actually for an ex-convict (someone being released from prison...) 
and I had one lady I never met *rip me limb from limb* when I wasn't 
wearing a ribbon. I simply said: "Look here, lady; I supported our troops 
by *being one* for 6 years." She didn't even apologize - she just walked 
away (quietly at least... thankfully).

[snip]

>of English, and all computer knowledge totaly outdated :)

I don't think you're qualified, Hans! You're knowledge of english is 
already too good, from the sounds of it, and most of the real computer 
knowledge I use day to day is over (or at least near) 10 years old...

>VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen

OnTopic: I *might* be able to make that next year - Hans, are there any 
really good Deutschland map websites out there? I have an uncle in 
?Garmisch? (I'd have to look that up) and I served for 3 weeks in Oerbke 
(about 50km north of Hannover)...

I've got enough American Express points that I could have 2 free European 
Round-Trip tickets -- the wife & I might be headed for Germany sometime - 
maybe I'll plan to fly there???

Laterz,
Roger "Merch" Merchberger

[1] Many people say they exist - but when I say "show me" they become 
conspicuously quiet...

[2] It's prolly a gubbermint conspiracy - The only reason I can think of 
for it to be illegal to take one's own life is because it would reduce the 
tax income.

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 19:07:00 2003

Sure, for a short ride on a dry day. Try cycling 10K miles per annum
that I drive.

Besides don't you know that it is un-American to not use gas and support
Big Oil?

Eric

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 10 19:13:00 2003

> Sounds a bit like Maplin.

Oh, don't get me started on Maplin. I call them 'Craplin' for a very good 
reason :-)

> Me: "Have you got any 74LS573s in stock?"

You must be joking :-). Several of the Maplin shops in the london area 
have 10k resistors (you know, the common 0.6W ones that everybody uses) 
as special-order-only items (meaning it takes at least a week to get them!).

They currently sell Fluke multimeters (and have them in the shops), but 
don't sell the spare fuses for them (for all they're listed in the 
catalogue). When I say 'don't sell', I don't mean special-order-only. 
They are discontinued!

Another of their stupid tricks is stocking half a connector, They'll keep 
the plug in stock but not the socket or vice versa. %deity knows why...

10 years ago, they were better. Even then I don't think I ever got everything
I wanted without having to order it, but I generally got most items. And 
special orders took a couple of days. Now, I rarely leave the shop with 
_anything_ I want.

Antohhr change in policy relates to the small order surchage. For as long 
as I can remember, small orders (less than \pounds 5.00 I think) done by 
mail or phone have had a surchage (\pounds 5.00 or thereabouts added to 
them). At one time, if you ordered the components in the shop, they would 
send them to your home address without a surcharge (or postage charges) 
since it was their fault they didn't have them in stock. Not any more. In 
fact they tried to convince me that the surcharge even applied to special 
orders delivered to the shop. My comments at that point are not 
repeatable on a public list!

And it seems to be the case that for many items the number kept in stock 
at the shops is lower than the first 'price break' for discounts (if 
that's for 10 items, say, they'll keep 9 in the shop). If you then buy 
those 9 and put one on special order you _don't_ get the discount price. 
And they can't seem to put 10 on order if they have some in stock. 

The only reason I go to Maplin is because there's nowhere else. Doing an 
order to RS or Farnell is a pain for a few components. 

-tony

---

From: Ron Hudson <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 23:20:01 2003

Maybe you could stop by Halted...   : ^ )

www.halted.com - has a map,  Near where central expressway and lawrence 
express way cross
in Santa Clara (between sunnyvale and San Jose)

In the Santa Clara location we currently have "Make an offer" racks out 
front.

locations also in Sacramento and Rhonert Park.

(ob disclaimer - I do work for Halted
Ask for RON at the counter, we don't get commissions or anything
but I'd say HI!)

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 23:26:01 2003

Roger Merchberger wrote:
> Living in Michigan my whole life, I've heard it -> well, I need 
> Linux-speak for this:
> 

Usually I hear sunshine.

> [1] I've also heard a variation with a bug crawling up one's arse - to 
> mean that one was quite irritable that day...

Bug?  Never heard that one..... usually I hear about a corn cob.

I'm also in Michigan, but not exactly heavy duty corn country.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 23:36:00 2003

> cashiers from giving unauthorized deals to their friends.

I don't have a Fry's but there is a person at the exit/entrance to Best 
Buy.  They don't usually stop me, on the way out.  They do stop you on 
the way in, if you have a return, However.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 23:46:00 2003

Chuck Yerkes wrote:
> Well, they under staff for weekends.  Find me a store that's not

Best Buy sure doesn't under staff on the weekends!  Usually, when I go 
to Best Buy it's on the weekend.  They have an army of people to harrass 
me, with the question of, "is there anything I can help you with?".  It 
drives me nuts, I do my best not to make eye contact with them, but 
still get asked.  If I need help I know how to ask for it, otherwise get 
out of my way!

>>If they don't have this and detain you it is the equivalent of false

Never thought of that..... I don't have a Frys though, and Best Buy 
doesn't usually bother people leaving.  Sams Club always wants to mark 
receipts, though.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: Jim <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 23:56:00 2003

I'd love to, but your company's website needs work.  "View Products" 
results in nothing to view. Search returns results but gives a server 
error when trying to select a product. Hard to patronize when one cannot 
see what's for sale. Sorta like having an Open sign in the window and 
locked doors.

Jim

Ron Hudson wrote:

> www.halted.com - has a map,  Near where central expressway and 
> lawrence express way cross
> In the Santa Clara location we currently have "Make an offer" racks 
> out front.
>
> .

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 03:07:00 2003

> Sure, for a short ride on a dry day. Try cycling 10K miles per annum
:)

> Besides don't you know that it is un-American to not use gas and support
Indeed, which is why both the Malibu LS V6 and the Cobra suck
some extra gas to make up for my bicycling :)

--f

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 03:10:00 2003

> in Santa Clara (between sunnyvale and San Jose)
Yeah, but last time I was there, some droid dropped a crate on
my (already sore) foot.... we did find a load of goodies there,
though :)

--f

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 03:57:00 2003

> 5-10 mins. No stop lights either.

Well, Munich is supposed to be a large city, still the
waiting line is usualy less than 10 Minutes (*1) And
best of all, they changed the line policies some time
ago: As soon as you reachend the counter once, and you
have to go for another counter, like paying a fee, you
may jump the line when you return. So only one waiting,
followed by a real express handling. It's a totaly new
feeling.

Gruss
H.

(*1) Ok, you're as usual screwed when some unprepaired
foreigners occupie all counters. On the other hand,
during the (short) opening hours they have always all
counters occupied, with backup personal if one goes for
a break.

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 05:31:01 2003

> Depends on the kind of smoke. It's CA, so most likely its the good kind

:) Does that work????

Anyway, over here it's literaly the same saying,
'Jemanden Zucker in den Arsch blasen' (blowin
shugar up s.o. ass). So maybe it's taken from
some German immigrants? (*1) The meaning is,
depending of the region, either spoiling someone,
or trying to convince s.o. (i.a. customer) by
telling whatever he want to hear.

Another similar wording is 'Dem Affen Zucker
geben' (giving shugar to the ape) wich means
geting back to your pet topic, or more exact
giving giving the right catchword to s.o. so
he'll jump right onto his pet topic.

Gruss
H.

(*1) Of course there's still the possibility that
it took the other way over the pond.

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 05:51:01 2003

On Wed, 11 Jun 2003, Hans Franke wrote:

> waiting line is usualy less than 10 Minutes (*1)
Amsterdam is likewise in size, but: it doesnt have any
lines at DMV (CBR).  Why?

BECAUSE YOU F* CANNOT JUST GO THERE

In Holland, it takes 3 *MONTHS* to get something done with
or for your drivers license.  Like, if you need to do a
driving test, you need to apply (through a driving school,
usually !) and that takes, oh, anywhere between two and
three months before you get a DATE for the test.  If you
fail the test, all starts over again.

Bah.

I'll take the 1-hr DMV line anytime ;)

--f

---

From: Christopher McNabb <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 05:54:01 2003

> followed by a real express handling. It's a totaly new

Here in the Commonwealth of Virginia you theoretically only have to go
to the DMV when first obtaining a Drivers License or when first
registering a vehicle.  Almost everything else can be done over the
internet or at strategically placed ATM like machines.  In fact, I was
able to get on the net yesterday, update my current address, and have
new Drivers License and vehicle registration cards (with the new
address) mailed to me.  Normal delivery time is under 5 days by US
Snail.

It really is a convenient service and actually makes the lines a lot
shorter for the rare occasions when you do have to be physically
present.

-- 
Christopher L McNabb
Operating Systems Analyst         Email: [email-masked]
Virginia Tech                     ICBM:  37.1356N 80.4272N
GMRS: WPSR255                     ARS:   N2UX  Grid Sq: EM97SD

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 05:59:00 2003

> Would Holland, being a Const. Monarchy, do? :)

Nope, they got frindly police men and even more don't
put up unnecessary hurdles. They won't waste their
time in ineffective measurements.

Gruss
H.

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 06:21:00 2003

> time in ineffective measurements.
Who told you that?  Tis a lie..

The cops are usually OK, its probably your own attitude
they will reflect when dealing with you.. I am pretty
much nice and friendly when dealing with a cop (the U.S.
taught me that ;-) and they usally are the same with me.

And, indeed, they dont *usually* stop you for silly things,
like when I got pulled over and fined (heavily) for having
a broken headlight.  Here, they'll pull you over and let
you know that the light is broken, and that it'd be better
and safer to have it replaced- soon.  If you're speeding,
but not too much (like, say, 135 where 120 is allowed),
they'll pass you, and the dude not driving will make the
"dude, slow down a bit" gesture with his hands, rather
than pulling you over.  Stuff like that.

But, Holland is full of *other* insanities, trust me.

--f

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 07:33:00 2003

> some extra gas to make up for my bicycling :)

Does Royal Dutch Shell run your government, too?

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 07:41:01 2003

> > Depends on the kind of smoke. It's CA, so most likely its the good kind

Maybe the smoke reference is to 'holy smoke' which may or may not work
regardless
of where and how it is administered. :)

Also, would sugar work????

Eric

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 07:51:01 2003

> Does Royal Dutch Shell run your government, too?
Dunno... in Holland, I drive a TurboDiesel car, which has
a far better mileage than the others I drive in the U.S. :)

--f

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 07:59:01 2003

re: http://www.halted.com
> Search returns results but gives a server 
> error when trying to select a product.

The links are munged in advance by the server with a
preceding "noparse#http://w..." that deactivates them.
This happens when you have scripting turned off in your
browser.  The links would work fine _with_ this browser
setting if the server didn't go and break them for you.
This may be a way to keep you from trying to order online
which probably actually needs the scripting active in that
case, unlike for browsing which does not.
Not a great design, but heck, even HP has made bad
www choices in the past.

> I'd love to, but your company's website needs work.

Sure does.

John A.

I should add that I have visited HSC in 1991 and heavily
in 1988 and wouldn't miss a chance to go when in town.
It's a browse-in-person kind of place anyway.

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 08:30:01 2003

> shorter for the rare occasions when you do have to be physically

No Way. Service is the key here. I don't want to learn how
to fill out the right form, or in which sequence I have to
press a button, just to learn afterwards, if I had done it
different I would have saved a lot of money.

Nanana, I want a human beeing, which does realy give me the
needed service to perform the required task.

Gruss
H.

---

From: Christopher McNabb <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 08:37:00 2003

> needed service to perform the required task.

You are assuming, of course, that those who would work for the DMV are
actually human.

:-D

-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Christopher L McNabb              Tel:   540 231 7554
Operating Systems Analyst         Email: [email-masked]
Virginia Tech                     ICBM:  37.205622N 80.414595W
GMRS: WPSR255                     ARS:   N2UX  Grid Sq: EM97SD

---

From: "Jim Kearney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 08:56:00 2003

> ago: As soon as you reachend the counter once, and you

Hmm, I've gotten a license at both the DMV in CA (multiple locations), and
the TÜV at Muenchen Westpark, and I don't think I've ever waited more than
10 minutes.

The MA RMV, OTOH, made me sign up *5 weeks* in advance to take the 15 minute
multiple-choice test to get my drivers license switched from CA to here.
And even don't ask about the change-of-address nightmare.  That was about 10
years ago, though, and I think they're doing much better now.

---

From: Ron Hudson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 10:08:01 2003

On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 09:51  PM, Jim wrote:

> error when trying to select a product. Hard to patronize when one 
> cannot see what's for sale. Sorta like having an Open sign in the 
> window and locked doors.
>
> Jim

The "View Products" part of our website now currently has pointers to 
some of the people we buy stuff from to sell to the public. Stuff like 
our line of Basic Stamps from Parallax. Take a look at "Equipment 
Specials" for the bigger surplus stuff we have. Most everything else is 
components like resistors or ICs

---

From: Ron Hudson <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 10:10:01 2003

> my (already sore) foot.... we did find a load of goodies there,

HEY! I resemble that remark. Hows your foot now? OK I hope.

(This is my own speech here not  Halted's )

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 10:23:01 2003

Fred N. van Kempen wrote:
> and safer to have it replaced- soon.

Yeah, as if the driver can't figure that out on his own.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 10:42:00 2003

> Yeah, as if the driver can't figure that out on his own.
The driver can. Yes. You didnt get the point. THe cops can
just as easy pull you over, fine you, and/or take your car
and/or license.  According to the strict letter of the law.
They often dont, and, rather, politely point out that you
shouldn't do that.

It was meant as an example of how a government *can* be
strict, but wont, and instead focus on more serious crap.

--f

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 17:36:00 2003

> It's a browse-in-person kind of place anyway.

A bit pricey though.

--

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 23:19:00 2003

> They often dont, and, rather, politely point out that you

Just because you have a headlight out that may even have just blown? 
That doesn't sound like politeness to me, that sounds more like they 
know it's "legal" to put the screws to the citizens, and are lording 
that fact over them.  If I have a headlight out, I already KNOW that it 
needs to be replaced, that's elementary.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 00:25:00 2003

> > Well, at least you concede it's logic. 8-) My point was 
> that to read 
> > an insinuation into it you would have to believe, in a somewhat 
> > paranoid way, that they think everyone might be stealing from them.
> 
> Yes, I do believe that, otherwise why would they employ the 
> practice?  The fact is, they check everyone's receipt because 
> they don't trust their customers.  It's not my paranoia, it's theirs.
> 
I don't see it that way.  They check everyone so that they'll
necessarily sweep in the crooks and would be crooks.  Whether it's
effective is a separate question.

> You know, in California, there's a law in the Vehicle Code 
> that says that no patron of the DMV shall have to wait in 
> line more than something like 4 minutes.  It doesn't lay out 
> what the repercussions are if you are made to wait longer 
> than that time, but I haven't had a chance to test it out yet.
> 
Can you say "governmental immunity"?  Sure, I knew you could.

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 00:28:00 2003

> me $100USD if I'm caught without it

Not true at all.  If you're broke and you get injured in a wreck because
you're not wearing it, guess who pays?

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 01:45:00 2003

> for due process and unlawful search and seizure to devalue my rights.

   OK.  In the last day, I've asked 4 people - my wife, the Bubba next 
door, my brother in Dallas, and a girl shopping in Walgreen's - the same 
question.

   "When you get asked to show your bag & receipt leaving CompUSA, do 
you see that as an invasion of your privacy?"

   All four answered no, my brother and the girl in Walgreens added that 
it's irritating, but no big deal, and they all four ended with the same 
comment:

   "I guess it would be an invasion if I was stealing something...."

   So, Sellam.  What's up with that?

	Doc

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 01:57:00 2003

>    So, Sellam.  What's up with that?

I don't know.  Maybe because you live in Texas?

:)

--

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 02:04:00 2003

Doc wrote:
>   "When you get asked to show your bag & receipt leaving CompUSA, do you 
> see that as an invasion of your privacy?"
> 

They're not thinking about what's going on..... they're just taking the 
easy way out, so they can deal with the things that immediately concern 
them.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 07:30:01 2003

> I don't know.  Maybe because you live in Texas? :)

*rofl*

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- "I'd love to go out with you, but I'm taking punk totem pole carving." -----

---

From: David Woyciesjes <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 08:06:01 2003

> needs to be replaced, that's elementary.

	Well, I have to add, around here in the city areas where I live, it
does happen frequently that people _don't_ realize they have one
headlight out. With all of the streetlamps around, its difficult to tell
the difference. There have been a few times, when I'm in a rush that I
don't even notice for a bit that mine are not even on.
	So, when an officer does stop me to tell me I have a problem with my
vehicle, I thank him for his politeness...

--
---   Dave Woyciesjes
---   ICQ# 905818

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 08:35:01 2003

> easy way out, so they can deal with the things that immediately concern 

You're not working for some kind of FUD agency? Sounds like
some official government policies, keep the people occupeid
by some shit, so nobody realy cares if you take away their
rights.

Gruss
H.

---

From: Roger Merchberger <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 10:11:00 2003

>you're not wearing it, guess who pays?

The insurance company. It's been deemed (by our gubbermint) illegal for 
insurance companies to a) issue discounts to those who do wear their belts, 
and b) not cover those who aren't wearing their belts. Besides, no matter 
who's fault it is anyway, with no-fault insurance, it doesn't matter.

It's my family who'll pay if I'm killed *because* of the damn things.

In the last 10 years, I've avoided 5 accidents - all would have been the 
other drivers' fault (running red lights, etc.), 1 was without any 
passengers, 3 times the passenger[s] (once their hearts got back out of 
their throats) said "How'd you miss that? That should've been an accident!" 
and 1 was with a passenger who was a trucker for a long time... in a 
totally calm voice, all he said was "What a dumbfuck."

What kind of compensation would I receive if I was injured *worse* due to a 
seatbelt? They're a gamble, just like life.

More importantly, whatever happened to *personal responsibility*???

Regards,

P.S. The few accidents I have been in (none of which involved another 
vehicle if I was at fault - I always steer for the ditch in times of 
trouble) I *never* wore the belt, and I *always* walked away from them.

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 11:00:01 2003

Regarding ---->  Subject: RE: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

Does this thread win some kind of award for being the single longest most
off-topic thread in list history? Geeze! I've already nixed it from the
cctech list completely :)

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 13:43:00 2003

> You are assuming, of course, that those who would work for the DMV are

Be shure, I'll make them :)

Gruss
H.

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 15:51:00 2003

> Does this thread win some kind of award for being the single 
> longest most off-topic thread in list history? Geeze!

I've long since started practicing my Pete Townsend "Windmill"
deletes.  IE, position your hand, index finger extended,  3~4 feet 
above and behind the delete key and lower in a circular motion - Fast!

John A.
...  Let the hand bounce back up to the raised position for the next eMail
- just in case.