Subject: Substitute for DEC SS/QD Floppies

From: Barry Skidmore <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 21:46:02 2003

I am looking for blank disks to use in a DEC RX50 drive.  I have seen
posted several places that DD disks can be used, but so far my attempts
to initialize Verbatim DS/DD disks under RT-11 have failed:

"?DUP-F-Size function failed"

Thanks,
Barry

-- 
Barry Skidmore <[email-masked]>

---

From: Patrick Finnegan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 22:00:01 2003

> "?DUP-F-Size function failed"

You can't format RX50's with any Dec PDP-11 hardware.  You probably can
with a VAXstation 2000, or using a PC and the proper software - there's
instructions for doing it under Linux with a 1.2MB floppy drive and DSDD
disks on the web.  If you want to I can probably find them.

Pat
--
Purdue University ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www.itap.purdue.edu/rcs/

---

From: Geoff Reed <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 11 23:29:01 2003

>disks on the web.  If you want to I can probably find them.

Get yourself a Dec-Rainbow to format them :)  or the Pro380 IIRC will 
format RX-50's :)

---

From: Stan Barr <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 12 13:30:00 2003

Hi,

> disks on the web.  If you want to I can probably find them.

Also putr for DOS:  http://www.dbit.com/

Although I've not been able to persuade my RX50 to read disks formatted
by it, but I've not really tried hard yet...
-- 
Cheers,
Stan Barr  [email-masked]

The future was never like this!

---

From: "Jerome H. Fine" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 13 08:20:01 2003

>Geoff Reed wrote:

> Get yourself a Dec-Rainbow to format them :)  or the Pro380 IIRC will

Jerome Fine replies:

There is also a utility written by John Wilson which runs on a PC.
PUTR can be found at:
http://www.dbit.com/pub/putr/

Note that you MUST use a HD 1.2 MByte PC drive to do
a LLF (Low Level Format) on the floppies.  IN  ADDITION,
you must use DDDS 5 1/4" PC media which normally hold
360 KBytes, NOT the HD 5 1/4" PC media which hold 1.2 MBytes.

As far as I know, PUTR runs under DOS/W95/W98, not the
latter versions.

When using a real PDP-11. there are 3rd party controllers such
as the Dialog DM01 which will allow you to perform an LLF on
an RX50 floppy, but an RQDX1,2,3/RX50 pair on a real PDP-11
is unable to do the LLF.  As it happens, the RQDX3/RX33 pair
on a real PDP-11 is able to do an LLF.  The RX33 media are
identical to the HD 5 1/4" 1.2 MByte media on a PC. In addition,
the RX33 drive is a PC drive although at the moment, I forget
the name and model - which accounts for the built-in hardware
ability to do the LLF - although I presume that the RQDX3 also
has extra firmware to support the LLF as well.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 08:45:59 2003

... yes, the one closer to Fremont on the opposite site of the bay of Silicon
Valley. I came down
the highway from Almeda on the east side of the bay just south of Oakland.

I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were badmouthing the place were a
little over the top in
my opinion.

Sure, the avreage salesman didn't know squat about computers and I could see
where one could have
a return mightmare. But, my experience was not bad and I actually enjoyed it.
The prices were as good
or better than Best Buy and the selection was better.

Eric

---

From: "Bruce Lane" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 09:58:01 2003

Good day,

*********** REPLY SEPARATOR  ***********

>the highway from Almeda on the east side of the bay just south of Oakland.

	That would be 'Alameda.' ;-)

>little over the top in my opinion.

	I never said I didn't like them (though I do appreciate the jokes about them that keep circulating). However, before you decide that those who bad-mouth the place are "over the top," you should probably have a look at this link:

	http://www.doofus.org/frys/

	I would also add that I have a set of ground rules for shopping at Fry's, ground rules that I rarely, if ever, break.

	(1) Know EXACTLY what you're going after, and even (approximately) what part of the store it's likely to be found in.

	(2) NEVER ask a sales 'droid for more than basic navigational directions (example: 'Where can I find the software aisle?')

	(3) NEVER take as Gospel anything a sales 'droid tells you about a given product. Know enough about what you're doing to know what you're buying, and what it can and cannot do.

	(4) ALWAYS check the seal on the package of what you're buying. Fry's has been known to repackage returns without even a basic checkout, and toss them right back on the shelf.

	(5) Know your market! Make sure that what you're buying is not available elsewhere, for a lower price.

	(6) If you're going after one of their 'open-box' specials, CHECK IT CAREFULLY to make sure it has all the accessories it should!

	Now, with all that said, I will say that I have gotten some good deals at Fry's in times past. My anti-static electronics vacuum cleaner (the one from 3M) came from them, at a reduced price because it was an 'open box' special. I never regretted that purchase.

	I'm also glad this thread came up. It serves as a reminder to me to go check on our new Fry's branch up in Renton. They're supposed to be opening in the next few days.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
Bruce Lane, Owner & Head Hardware Heavy,
Blue Feather Technologies -- http://www.bluefeathertech.com
ARS KC7GR (Formerly WD6EOS) since 12-77 -- [email-masked]
"I'll get a life when someone demonstrates that it would be superior
to what I have now..." (Taki Kogoma, aka Gym Z. Quirk)

---

From: Bryan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 10:09:00 2003

> 	That would be 'Alameda.' ;-)

Hmmm.... for some reason Star Trek IV comes to mind... ;)

Cheers,

Bryan

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 10:28:01 2003

> little over the top in my opinion.

Of course.  That's what you think when you go in for the first time.  Try
being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: Gene Buckle <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 10:36:01 2003

> Hmmm.... for some reason Star Trek IV comes to mind... ;)
Is that where the nulcear wessels are?  *runs away*

g.

---

From: Mark Firestone <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 10:48:01 2003

I hate Fry's.  (or hated, I don't live within 8000 miles of one now)... 
Just wait till you have to get some faulty part replaced...

>being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.

[---------]
"Homer, we don't have to have sex."
"Yes we do, the cookie told me so."
"Deserts aren't always right Homer."
"But they're so delicious."

Website:      retrobbs.org
BBS:           telnet bbs.retrobbs.org 2323
Tradewars:   telnet tradewars.retrobbs.org
[---------]

---

From: Fred Cisin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 10:57:12 2003

> I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were badmouthing the place were a

So,...
One experience with no disasters invalidates all previous discussion.

"I've been using Windoze for almost twenty minutes, and it hasn't ever
'blue-screened'"

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 11:01:00 2003

Hey if your lazy like me you will find places on the net to mailorder
anything and have it dropped off at your house for cheaper then what you can
buy it new with tax at the store. I would die without www.google.com.

On a side note does anybody else get the feeling that UPS, USPS, and FEDEX
love EBAY because of all the $1.99 treasures you find there that cost $5-XXX
or more for shipping to get it to your house?

I have found many retro computer bargains on ebay where a large percentage
of the total purchase price was in shipping.

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 12:05:00 2003

>of the total purchase price was in shipping.

UPS the real .com success story.

	Zane

-- 
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| [email-masked] (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 13:35:01 2003

> UPS the real .com success story.

You mean besides eBay itself? :)

--

---

From: Geoff Reed <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 14:25:51 2003

>Hmmm.... for some reason Star Trek IV comes to mind... ;)

where are you nuclear wessels?

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 1 23:44:00 2003

> > I must say, I like Fry's, and those that were badmouthing the place 
> > were a little over the top in my opinion.
> 
> Of course.  That's what you think when you go in for the 
> first time.  Try being a regular, then re-visit your opinion.
> 
Sellam loved George Bush the first time he saw him, then the
introspection started.

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 2 15:54:00 2003

Well, just add todays 'real Life' strip to that:
http://www.reallifecomics.com/index.php?do_command=show_strip&strip_id=971&auth=00000-00000-11111-00000-00000

:)

--
VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/

---

From: Philip Pemberton <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 09:59:01 2003

In message <[email-masked]>

> "I've been using Windoze for almost twenty minutes, and it hasn't ever
So? I've been using RISC OS and Linux all day and neither of them have
BSODded, died horribly or crashed.
And ISTR my ISP has a Solaris server that's been up 24/7 for over six
months...

Later.
-- 
Phil.
[email-masked]
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
... The current limits placed are based on resistance

---

From: Philip Pemberton <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 10:00:57 2003

In message <[email-masked]>

> of the total purchase price was in shipping.
This is admittedly OT, but I bought a second-hand autowinder for one of my
cameras a few days ago. It was sent via (British) Royal Mail's "Special
Delivery" service, i.e. it arrives before 12-noon or you get the postage fee
back. Well, my autowinder arrived OK, but the box was mangled (thank %DEITY
for bubblewrap) and it arrived at, you guessed it, 12:51 PM. And to top it
all off, the parcelmonkey didn't bother to knock - he/she/it just shoved a
"Come down to the depot to pick up your parcel" card through the door. If it
happens again, I'm going to play a fun game of "scream at the customer
[dis]services rep"...

Later.
-- 
Phil.
[email-masked]
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
... Reactance: your imaginary friend.

---

From: "J.C. Wren" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 10:24:09 2003

My experience is that the people who have problems with Windows are the 
people who *want* to have problems with Windows.  I have several Win2K boxen 
here whose only reason for being rebooted every few months is robbing 
harddrives or CD drives.  I also have Linux boxen here, one that currently 
has an uptime of 187 days.  No major record, but it got a new 60GB HD back 
then.

	I use Windows pretty hard, with a fairly constant set of software (mapping, 
CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and I don't get 
BSODs or crashes.

	Perhaps this person should switch an an OS more suited to their expectations.  
Like pencil and paper.

	--John

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 11:09:00 2003

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:

> people who *want* to have problems with Windows.
I must second that.

> I have several Win2K boxen
> harddrives or CD drives.
Um, or for redoing power lines/ups maint.  Like I had to shut down the
lot here this weekend, because of ups/power maint in my machine room.

> CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and I don't get
Likewise.  Fucked-up drivers are sometimes an issue, especially those
for network, sound and video, but if you're careful with those, no real
BSOD-ish situations.

> Like pencil and paper.
Pencils tend to break their tips, at least when I use them.  Duh.
Does that count as a bug? ;)

Cheers,
	Fred

---

From: Fred Cisin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 12:22:00 2003

> 	Perhaps this person should switch an an OS more suited to their expectations.

Congratulations.
YOU haven't had a problem, so you deny that any such problems exist.

To quote one of our other readers, "YOU ARE AN ASS."

---

From: "J.C. Wren" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 13:51:00 2003

Don't give me that crap.  I've been using personal computers since CP/M 2.2, 
and whel you may have been doing it longer, I think that's damn well long 
enough for me to recognize trends.  

	Yes, "normal" people have Windows problems now and again also.  MY experience 
shows that people who have the most problem are those that seem to be already 
biased against Windows/MS, and are looking for problems.  

	You don't like my theory, too bad.  To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."

	--John

On Sunday 06 July 2003 13:17 pm, Fred Cisin wrote:
> > people who *want* to have problems with Windows.  I have several Win2K
> > boxen here whose only reason for being rebooted every few months is
> > robbing harddrives or CD drives.  I also have Linux boxen here, one that
> > currently has an uptime of 187 days.  No major record, but it got a new
> > 60GB HD back then.
> > 	I use Windows pretty hard, with a fairly constant set of software
> > (mapping, CAD software, IE, ProComm, CD ripping, a few other things), and
> > I don't get BSODs or crashes.
> > 	Perhaps this person should switch an an OS more suited to their
> > expectations. Like pencil and paper.
>
> Congratulations.
> > > > "I've been using Windoze for almost twenty minutes, and it hasn't
> > > > ever 'blue-screened'"
> > >

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 14:23:00 2003

People,

Can we please drop the name-calling altogether and close
this topic?  There is absolutely no need for this, and I,
for one, do not want to see it in my "retro=fun!" mailbox.

Thanks,
	Fred

---

From: Fred Cisin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 15:03:00 2003

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, J.C. Wren wrote:
> 	Don't give me that crap.

WHICH crap?
That it is inappropriate to deny problems exist,
merely because you haven't encountered them?
or
what the Windoze reference was a metaphor for:
that it is inappropriate to deny that problems exist with Fry's,
merely because one went in there once without any problems?

> I've been using personal computers since CP/M 2.2,

If it is meant to IMPRESS, then you gotta do better.
BUT,... it does back up your claim to recognize trends, by indicating that
you have been around for most of the development of Windoze. (CP/M, DOS,
etc.)   I had no intention of impugning your length of time in the field.

> biased against Windows/MS, and are looking for problems.

I freely acknowledge that there are SOME people who create their own
problems.
And here certainly are cases where Windoze gets unfairly blamed for
other problems, including user error, and problems in applications
and drivers.

[Side note: I know of an Office-Jet composting on a shelf that had less
than 100 pages through it before an "upgrade" to Win2K resulted in it
being permanently removed from availability due to non-existence of
drivers.]

And some problems are not CAUSED by the OS, but consist
merely of GROSSLY inappropriate reactions by the OS to external problems
(ex: SMARTDRV write-caching, when encountering a bad sector)
And few would differentiate between what is validly a problem with the
OS v a problem with inadequate documentation or poor tech support.

Some people NEVER have a problem.  Sometimes it is due to VERY limitied
types of usage (which might not apply to you, although the list of
software that you use does not include some catagories of software -
could those be related to your more positive experiences?).  Sometimes
it's just a matter of probabilities.

NT,2K, and even XP, are significantly more reliable than 3x and 9x.  And I
will grudgingly accept the need for added hurdles for intrinsically
destabilizing things like writing disk sectors (rather important to some
of us).

But I hardly think that the current state of reliability is beyond
reproach, beyond the possibilities for significant improvement, nor
even exempt from complaint.
And it will take a long time with high reliability to outlive reputations
acquired due to debacles like SMARTDRV.

SOME people actually have had unacceptable levels of reliability.
Those who have NOT experienced such problems should not
marginalize those who do.
Blaming the user is not always acceptable.

> 	You don't like my theory, too bad.  To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."

Aren't we all

---

From: Fred Cisin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 15:20:01 2003

> for one, do not want to see it in my "retro=fun!" mailbox.

Sorry
We'll try to exercise more restraint

---

From: Philip Pemberton <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 16:17:01 2003

In message <[email-masked]>

> for network, sound and video, but if you're careful with those, no real
I find the "big guys" like Creative are utterly crap when it comes to drivers
and tech support. "There's nothing wrong with the driver, it must be your
PC." Oh, is that why I saw a good hundred people badmouthing a certain
Soundblaster on the newsgroups?
Well, speaking of SBs, I had an AWE64. The PnP E2PROM got trashed by a bug in
their driver. Their "techie" said, and I quote:
  "Well, your guarantee's void. You used unapproved drivers and it broke, so
you're on your own".
I asked how they could tell that I had used unapproved drivers. The techie
said "Well, you obviously used the beta drivers on our website, 'cos that's a
known bug". Despite the fact that at this point I had no internet access and
had heard many a horror story about beta drivers...

Then there was the fun I had with a D-Link network card (based on a Realtek
chipset). Here's a tip - grab Realtek's latest driver kit and install it. I
had lost packets, Windows networking errors, you name it. Upgraded the
drivers and the network card suddenly started working properly...

Later.
Error 8472. Borg dumped.

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 16:28:01 2003

> drivers and the network card suddenly started working properly...

   I have a better tip - don't buy Realtek.  Period.  They're not 
horrible for casual use, say a single box surfing over cable or DSL, but 
on a high-traffic connection, they eat a *lot* of CPU time.  The Realtek 
chipsets offload a lot of the packet processing to the main CPU, just 
like a Winmodem.

	Doc

---

From: Philip Pemberton <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 16:45:00 2003

In message <[email-masked]>

> chipsets offload a lot of the packet processing to the main CPU, just 
I've got a 3com Etherlink-III (3C509) ISA-bus board in the router/server
machine, an EL3 in one of the other machines, an Intel PRO-100 PCI in
storage and the DLink in one of the PCs. Oh, and there's an i-cubed
EtherLAN600 (Winbond chipset ISTR) in the RiscPC...

Later.

---

From: Fred Cisin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 16:54:00 2003

Welcome to Driver Hell.

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 17:03:00 2003

Hi All,

For those of you who don't follow alt.sys.pdp11: I set up
a simple web page to start an inventory poll on the number
and types of PDP-11 systems used by hobbyists, the operating
systems in use on them, and what, if any, licenses are being
used for those systems.

All this has to do with the whole Mentec not having a license
program for the PDP-11 R* operaing systems (RT, RSX and RSTS).

After some discussion with Mentec, the site was set up to do
the gathering of numbers so we can convince their Management
that there are many systems in hobby use, and that there's
enough people willing to aquire such a license.

Please check out

	http://www.pdp11.nl/poll.htm

and do your magic.  None of the information provided will be
transferred to anyone- only the summarized info will be made
available in a report to Mentec - a copy of which you can
request by requesting the 'feedbeck' stuff in the poll.

Thanks, and spread the word !

Fred

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 17:18:00 2003

Interesting. I have had very odd performance with Realtek cards on FreeBSD.
So much so that I stopped using them. I've also had some of the same
problems with certain older 3com cards. Soon as I put in a modern card, all
problems disappeared.

The basic gist of the problems was sporadically very very poor throughput,
then suddenly great throughput. It SEEMED almost like a 10/100 duplex
mismatch, but it wasn't.

Jay West
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Fred Cisin" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 4:50 PM
Subject: Re: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at
Fry's in CA...)

---

From: Doc <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 17:35:00 2003

> then suddenly great throughput. It SEEMED almost like a 10/100 duplex

   We had a client who, after spending ~$2000 on a firewall PC, 
populated it with $9 Realtek cards.  1 outside interface and 4 inside. 
It was running Linux, a v2.4.17 kernel.  The thing ran all the internal 
interfaces at near saturated levels, and was showing 1.2-2.5 system 
loads (up to 2.5 processes waiting on CPU time).  They were losing a lot 
of packets.

   After I talked them into replacing the Realtek cards with 3Com 
3C905s, system load dropped to 0.1-0.6, and no more dropped packets.  I 
got curious and set up a Win2k testbed with 3 Realteks, and saw the same 
behavior under load.  You could literally see the CPU load in Task 
Manager rise as the network traffic increased.

   They're Win-NICs.  It's not a driver issue, it's the way they're 
designed.

	Doc

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 17:49:00 2003

>    They're Win-NICs.  It's not a driver issue, it's the way they're
Realtek chipsets indeed act like Winmodem (LT) modem chipsets
do for modems: minimize the amount of hardware needed (to save
money on that), and do as much as possible in the (driver)
software.  Meaning, fairly large, complex and cpu-intensive
driver code.

--fred

---

From: Frank McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 17:58:00 2003

> Interesting. I have had very odd performance with Realtek cards on FreeBSD.

Um, you have read the comments near the head of
/usr/src/sys/pci/if_rl.c, haven't you?

-Frank McConnell

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 18:12:00 2003

Frank wrote...
> /usr/src/sys/pci/if_rl.c, haven't you?

No, I hadn't. But I have now. :) Pretty serious ripping from the guy who
wrote the driver :)

Jay West

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 22:12:00 2003

> 	You don't like my theory, too bad.  To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."

Sheesh.  First of all, calm down.  You're taking this rather personally.

Secondly, I've been involved with computers a long time too.  So have a
good many other people on this mailing list.  One thing that generally
ties us together is that we have an appreciation for computers that are
robust and bug free.  Operating systems prior to Windows generally fit
that description.  Unless you've been living under a stone, it is
generally acknowledge amongst many professional computer people that MS is
a joke.

Most versions of Windows up until XP were buggy as hell and a pain in the
ass to maintain.  When I was running Windows 95, I had to reboot a few
times a week.  When I switched to Windows 98, a few times a month.  Now
I'm using XP, and I still have to reboot once in a while.  Definitely an
improvement.  But the fact is, most of us have become so jaded with MS
"operating systems" that we instinctively think of them as crap.

Now, the real question is, why do you take attacks against an operating
system personally?

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 22:14:00 2003

> > 	You don't like my theory, too bad.  To quote yourself: "YOU ARE AN ASS."

I certainly am.

--

---

From: peter tremewen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 23:13:00 2003

Hi all,

        I'm fairly new to computer collection as a hobby. One thing that has
recently become an issue is "software preservation".  I have just inhereted
a bucket load of C64 and C128 origainal software. I'm wondering how best to
preserve this ciollection in a workable state?? I know there are sites out
there in web land that have copies of software for the commodore archived,
but how do I place these copies to a disk that a commodore 64/128 could
read?? Also what is the best way to store my origainal disks so they might
be usable in years to come??

                Hope to hear from you all soon

                        Peter T.

---

From: Ian Primus <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 05:15:01 2003

There is software out there called Star Commander. ( The Star Commander 
homepage is http://sta.c64.org/sc.html , although it is currently down) 
  It runs in DOS on PC hardware, although it runs best on older PC's 
(486 and earlier Pentiums). You have to build a fairly simple adapter 
cable, and that allows you to connect a Commodore 1541 or compatible 
drive to the PC's parallel port. Once you have it all set up, it is a 
simple matter to copy either individual files or make disk images. 
Also, you can go the other way, making real disks from the images. It 
is kinda slow, the Commodore disk drives were not known for their 
speed, but there is a way to modify the drive to provide a faster, 
parallel interface, instead of the Commodore serial. As for preserving 
the original floppies, keep them in a cool, dry place, preferably 
standing on end as opposed to laying flat so they don't warp, and in 
some sort of covered box to keep dust and moisture out. Keep them away 
from heat, extreme cold, and magnetic fields. 5 1/4 floppies are pretty 
resilient, and can generally take quite a lot of mishandling before 
failing, but it's best not to chance it. Also, be careful of mildew. 
There is a certain type that likes to live on the disk media, and shows 
up as white blotches on the media itself. This generally destroys the 
disk, although I have heard it is possible to take the media out of the 
jacket, carefully clean it, and put it in a fresh jacket and recover 
the data.

Ian Primus
[email-masked]

---

From: Mark Firestone <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 07:01:00 2003

You've got my vote.  I'll try to contact my friend (who has my actual PDP 
11/23) and get him to vote as well...

Take Care,

Mark

[---------]

Website:      retrobbs.org

---

From: Philip Pemberton <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 09:48:00 2003

In message <[email-masked]>

> /usr/src/sys/pci/if_rl.c, haven't you?
Quote:
  The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is
  probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made, with the possible
  exception of the FEAST chip made by SMC. The 8139 supports bus-master
  DMA, but it has a terrible interface that nullifies any performance
  gains that bus-master DMA usually offers.

Um.... Well, if you'll excuse me, I'm off to set fire to all the
Realtek-based NICs in the house... EVIL EVIL EVIL!!!

Later.
-- 
Phil.
[email-masked]
http://www.philpem.dsl.pipex.com/
... Real techs don't lick nine-volt batteries!

---

From: Bill Bradford <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 10:00:00 2003

> Realtek-based NICs in the house... EVIL EVIL EVIL!!!

I had a Realtek 8139-based PCI 10/100 ethernet card in my wife's PC.
This was the only card I'd ever seen where unplugging the ethernet, then
plugging it back in, required a *reboot of the operating system* to get
TCP/IP connectivity back.  I upgraded her system to XP, replaced the 
Realtek card with an Intel eepro-chipset card, and it works fine now..

Bill

-- 
bill bradford
[email-masked]
austin, texas

---

From: Alexander Schreiber <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 14:19:00 2003

> drivers and the network card suddenly started working properly...

The best place for a Realtek network card is in the trashcan. Period. Do
not buy this crap.

The FreeBSD kernel driver for this card is cursing it explicitly:

 * The RealTek 8139 PCI NIC redefines the meaning of 'low end.' This is
 * probably the worst PCI ethernet controller ever made, with the
 * possible
 * exception of the FEAST chip made by SMC. The 8139 supports bus-master
 * DMA, but it has a terrible interface that nullifies any performance
 * gains that bus-master DMA usually offers.
 *

 * It's impossible given this rotten design to really achieve decent
 * performance at 100Mbps, unless you happen to have a 400Mhz PII or
 * some equally overmuscled CPU to drive it.

And I had one of the buggers running in a server (not my choice, I
replaced it later with a 3Com) - and the crap thing randomly decided
that no, it didn't want to talk to the network at all. Pulling the
ethernet cable and reinserting it usually reset the card enough to get
it speaking again. Not exactly acceptable behaviour, so it got junked
and replaced with a 3Com 3C905C which never caused us any trouble.

Regards,
      Alex.
-- 
"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and
 looks like work."                                      -- Thomas A. Edison

---

From: Mark Firestone <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 03:02:00 2003

Aww.  They aren't the worst cheapo card I've been forced to buy in my 
career, as in they actually work, if slowly.

What do you want for £9

Take Care,

mark

[---------]

Website:      retrobbs.org

---

From: Frank McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 10:29:00 2003

> career, as in they actually work, if slowly.

I just get something of a chuckle out of people who figure all
Ethernet cards are alike.  Perhaps they have forgotten the lessons of
the 3Com 3C50[01].

-Frank McConnell

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 10:46:00 2003

> Ethernet cards are alike.  Perhaps they have forgotten the lessons of
Oooo!  the 501.  Baaaaaad memories.  Sometimes, weather and other
conditions permitting, it would actually not choke on inbound
packets. :)

--f

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 17:58:00 2003

> Ethernet cards are alike.  Perhaps they have forgotten the lessons of

What lesson was that?  I thought they were fine.  At least I never had
problems with them.

--

---

From: [email-masked] (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Tue Jul 8 18:24:01 2003

> What lesson was that?  I thought they were fine.  At least I never had

  Reading the comments in the Linux 3c501 driver (drivers/net/3c501.c) is
amusing.  Some of the good bits:

    Do not purchase this card, even as a joke.  It's performance is horrible,
    and it breaks in many ways.

 *  Some documentation is available from 3Com. Due to the boards age
 *  standard responses when you ask for this will range from 'be serious'
 *  to 'give it to a museum'. The documentation is incomplete and mostly
 *  of historical interest anyway.

    The driver still allows only the default address for cards when loaded
    as a module, but that's really less braindead than anyone using a 3c501
    board. :)

  -spc (Doesn't seem to be very popular with the Linux crowd.  But I've used
	other 3Com cards with no problem)

---

From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 18:28:00 2003

£9? You're overpaying. I bought four Belkin refurbed cards for $3 each. I
use them in my old-ish machines, and are particularly nice as they have
drivers for just about every OS ever made. (OS/2, BeOS, JavaOS(!),
Solaris/X86)

As for their technical merits, I'm sure they suck real bad performance-wise,
but who cares when all I want is a fast way to get Syndicate Wars on my P-90
DR-DOS machine? :)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Mark Firestone" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, July 08, 2003 3:57 AM
Subject: Re: OT: Realtek; Was Re: Windoze crash (was Re: Well, I was at
Fry's in CA...)

---

From: Frank McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 18:59:00 2003

> What lesson was that?  I thought they were fine.  At least I never had

I am pleased to be able to say that I no longer remember the details,
but the problem was something like that the card had enough room in
its buffer to hold no more than one received packet.  If you sent it
another one before the processor on its end got around to reading the
packet out of it, one packet or the other got dropped (I'm thinking
the one in the buffer got dropped so that the new one could be
buffered).

If you didn't want any packets to get dropped, you needed to be careful
to not overrun the buffer by having more than one packet outstanding.

Keep in mind that this was 1987 or so and PC clock speeds were right
around Ethernet bus speed, so the PC couldn't get the packets out of
the buffer as quickly as the network could put them there.

If someone else out there remembers more, please do feel free to jump in.

-Frank McConnell

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 19:16:00 2003

> the one in the buffer got dropped so that the new one could be
Indeed, the SEEQ chipset (...) could only do one thing at a time, so
they sized the buffers accordingly.  The Etherlink II had more buffer
space, but was crippled in the same way: it was single-tasked.

> If someone else out there remembers more, please do feel free to jump in.
I dont wanna ;)

--fred (who co-wrote that damn driver in linux, AND debugged it to get
        it a LITTLE bit working..)

---

From: Rod Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 19:33:00 2003

Well, I'll take a chance and ask... just in case timing is right...

I'm looking for a PDP 11/35,  or /40 to add to the collection.  I know I
know, who isn't looking for one!

I have a few 11/23's and misc cards I might consider trading in case anyone
in Western Canada has a /35 or /40 they are looking to  trade???  sell ???
or just find a good home for...

thx
rod

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 20:31:00 2003

> know, who isn't looking for one!

I'm not.  I don't have the room :^(

		Zane

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 22:09:00 2003

Zane wrote....
> I'm not.  I don't have the room :^(

I *DO* have the room, and I AM looking for a 35/40/45 *grin*.

So of someone is getting a little tight on space..... 

Jay (dreaming) West

---

From: Rod Young <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 8 22:51:01 2003

And... if someone wants to swap an  35/40/45 for my 11/23 ---SMILE... let me
know!

rod (hoping)

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 9 02:22:00 2003

On 2003.07.08 17:22 Frank McConnell wrote:

> Perhaps they have forgotten the lessons of
> the 3Com 3C50[01].
The 3C50[01] was bevore my time. Please tell me the story. 

BTW: I found this in the NetBSD source for the Realtek cards:
src/sys/dev/pci/if_rtk_pci.c
/*
 * Default to using PIO access for this driver. On SMP systems,
 * there appear to be problems with memory mapped mode: it looks like
 * doing too many memory mapped access back to back in rapid succession
 * can hang the bus. I'm inclined to blame this on crummy
design/construction
 * on the part of RealTek. Memory mapped mode does appear to work on
 * uniprocessor systems though.
 */
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 9 05:09:00 2003

> amusing.  Some of the good bits:

Oh, never mind.  I was thinking of the 3c509, which works pretty OK.

--

---

From: Mark Firestone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 9 08:43:00 2003

Sounds like my old boss ... he always bought the cheapest junk.  He used to 
buy the £9 modems as well, until I convinced him (after about a dozen on 
site visits) that it was worth the extra £20 to put in external *real* 
modems.  No problems after that...

[---------]

Website:      retrobbs.org

---

From: Mark Firestone <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 9 08:46:00 2003

Very true.  I must have installed a hundred of them, and I think I had two 
go bad.  The folks who were using them would never have noticed the 
difference -- all they were doing was sharing a few word documents, and 
downloading rafts of pornography on company time...

What is Syndicate Wars?  Sounds familiar?  Sounds interesting...

Take Care,

Mark

[---------]

Website:      retrobbs.org