Subject: New to list...

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 18:40:00 2003

Hi new to list... just won a SUN 4/690mp... 

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3027472460&category=11216&rd=1

* have hints on moving... 
* what in it based on the pictures...
* wants to make an offer to buy it for more than i paid for it
* any one would care to comment? 

really just interested in the HP box going to convert it to a scsi disk box 
for some of my other smaller machines...  and the monitor and keyboard.. the 
rest is a bonus

Sincerly 

James Dickens

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 20:52:01 2003

Wahoo!

> * have hints on moving... 

Lift gate truck - check with Budget.

> * wants to make an offer to buy it for more than i paid for it

Um... no.  She's all yours  ;-)

> * any one would care to comment? 

If you intend to run it, AFAIK, the Sun4/690 tops out at Solaris 2.5.1
or Solaris 2.6.

-ethan

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 21:58:01 2003

> Lift gate truck - check with Budget.
hoping to put it in the back of my Ford Explorer,  with help from the seller 
maybe.. and will probably disasemble it to get into my basement... thank 
goodness i have cellar on the outside of hose so it's a strait shot into the 
basement.. might rent a refrigerator dolly... to deal with the stairs.. 
> If you intend to run it, AFAIK, the Sun4/690 tops out at Solaris 2.5.1
was leaning towards linux ( i hear debian supports it)  

could you tell if it has a 220 volt power cord or not I couldn't tell, and if 
it does will i be able to plug it into a electric dryer outlet?  I'm still a 
bit leary of plugging in a machine that requires that much power. 

James

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 08:20:00 2003

--- jamesd <[email-masked]> wrote:
> hoping to put it in the back of my Ford Explorer...

The Sun racks that I am familiar with are much wider than 19" (there's
an internal 19"-spaced rack, with stuff on both sides) about 60" tall.
That optical storage rack looks like a somewhat standard 72"-tall rack.

You *might* be able to move it in an Explorer.  I've moved two (empty)
H960 racks in a VW Microbus (the contents were placed under the racks,
on the floor behind the driver's seat, and I've moved an 11/750 in a
Chevy Astro, but what you've won is a bit larger than either.

> was leaning towards linux ( i hear debian supports it)  

Linux for SPARC is a dog.  It runs, but for certain architectures (sun4c
especially, which is a little newer than yours), it's vastly sub-
optimal.  Given the age of the equipment, nobody wants to fix the problem,
either.

If you aren't going to run Solaris, I'd recommend *BSD.
 
> could you tell if it has a 220 volt power cord or not I couldn't tell,

ISTR the 690 might take a 220V plug.  I am not a wiring genius, but I
have assembled a few 30A 110V plugs and one 208-3phase for a VAX 8530.

> and if it does will i be able to plug it into a electric dryer outlet? 

Not sure.  There are extensive discussions on this list about that
very topic.  OTOH, I *think* the innards of the 690 are 110V, but the
power distribution box might want 220.  In that case, you can plug the
CPU into its own 15A circuit and run the rest of the stuff off of a
different circuit.

> I'm still a bit leary of plugging in a machine that requires that much
> power. 

I can understand that.  This stuff wasn't exactly designed for home
use.

-ethan

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 08:45:01 2003

> I can understand that.  This stuff wasn't exactly designed for home

Heh.  here, 220VAC @ 20A is normal house wiring.  Many houses here
are fed with 48A (new) or 60A (old), on three circuits.  High power
circuits (dryers, arcos etc) are done on 380VAC (3-phase) here.

My apartment now has the usual 3 220V (60A) circuits, two 380VAC
circuits, and a new 500VAC power line attached to the power stuff
downstairs :)

"Gee, sir... what ARE you going to do here.. would your hobby be
including devices such as electric chairs, perhaps??"

*grin*

:)

--fred

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 12:17:00 2003

> > CPU into its own 15A circuit and run the rest of the stuff off of a

yeah 2x 15A curcuits would not be a problem, but i think it might be 220v to 
the power supply and from then on the rest is just DC lines to each 
component, begining to think I should just forget about the whole deal, not 
worth the 500mile round trip drive and a hernia of moving a 600 lbs. beast...

I figured out what i thougt was a masive powersupply drawer was really holding 
5 or so Full Height SCSI drives that were either 1. 3. or 9 gig's each not 
really econmical to use these days given when the power to run them costs. 
especially if they are the 1 or 3 gig variety 

> circuits, and a new 500VAC power line attached to the power stuff

that's a damm scary place to live as a child or a electrian... my son when he 
was about 3 thought it would be find to pee on a electrical outlet all it 
happened back then was sparks and smoke hate to think about what would 
happened at 380 or 500 vac?  

I ran over a extension cord on a electric lawn mower, i know an evil device, 
got quite a shock and it was only 110 15A curcuit i shiver to think of    
even 220v at 60A, i could of been dead with that much power going through me 
even for a short time i felt my shock...

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 13:30:01 2003

On 2003.06.04 15:15 Ethan Dicks wrote:

> Linux for SPARC is a dog. 
This doesn't depend on the architecture it runs on. ;-)

> It runs, but for certain architectures
> (sun4c especially, which is a little newer than yours), 
> it's vastly suboptimal. 
The Sun 4/6xx is sun4m and that is newer then sun4c. In fact, the 4/6xx
was the very first sun4m machine. 

> Given the age of the equipment, nobody wants to fix the problem,
either.
On Linux. NetBSD-current/sparc has gone multiprocessor recently. 

> If you aren't going to run Solaris, I'd recommend *BSD.
BTW: You can patch Solaris 8 (and 9?) and get it on the 4/6xx. A friend
did this with a 4/6xx board in a 3/60 case. But NetBSD would be a very
good choice, especially if there isn't enough RAM... 

> I can understand that.  This stuff wasn't exactly designed for home
I.e.: It makes a lot of fun. :-) 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 13:55:00 2003

> was the very first sun4m machine. 

Oh... I was thinking that the 4/6xx was a straight sun4, not sun4m
or sun4d, etc.  I do know the difference in the desktop line - my
present home server is a SPARC5/110 (sun4m) that replaced a SPARCclassic
and a SPARC-LX that preceeded it (as an aside, I've been attempting to
surf lately on a Classic with Netscape 4.7... one word comes to mind...
Ow!)

> good choice, especially if there isn't enough RAM... 

I do recall there being a patch for a later version of Solaris (wasn't
sure if it was 7 or 8), because all they did was to test the processor
type early on and halt if it was a VME cage.  Sun threatened to remove
driver support for VME devices, but I don't know if the ever followed
through with it.

I looked at putting a large VME CPU in a 3/60 case... isn't there an
issue with power distribution - i.e. the 4/6xx CPU depends on being
in a real VME cage to get all the power pins lit up, and the 3/60
case only has one live connector.  I think the 3/110 was the smallest
chassis I heard of used to hold an unmodified 4/6xx CPU board.
 
> I.e.: It makes a lot of fun. :-) 

Naturally.  I wouldn't have several 42" racks of DEC equipment in my
basement (plus many 72" racks elsewhere) if I didn't think big stuff
was fun!

-ethan

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 16:32:00 2003

On 2003.06.04 20:50 Ethan Dicks wrote:

> Oh... I was thinking that the 4/6xx was a straight sun4, 
It is more or less a SS10 in 9U VME form factor. (Or the SS10 is a 4/6xx
in a pizza case without VME adapter.)

> (as an aside, I've been attempting to surf lately on a Classic
> with Netscape 4.7... one word comes to mind... Ow!)
Ewwww. A Clasic might be the slowest sun4m machine ever build. AFAIK it
is comparable in "slowness" to a IPX. Hmmm, sun.hardware.FAQ.txt:
    SPARCclassic (SPARCclassic Server)(SPARCstation LC) (4/15)
        Processor(s):   microSPARC @ 50MHz, 59.1 MIPS, 4.6 MFLOPS,
                        26.4 SPECint92, 21.0 SPECfp92,
                        626 SPECintRate92, 498 SPECfpRate92

    SPARCstation IPX (4/50)
        Processor(s):   Fujitsu MB86903 or Weitek W8701 @ 40MHz, FPU on
                        CPU chip, Sun-4c MMU, 8 hardware contexts,
                        28.5 MIPS, 4.2 MFLOPS, 21.8 SPECint92,
                        21.5 SPECfp92, 517 SPECintRate92, 510
                        SPECfpRate92

> issue with power distribution - 
Yes. The 3/60 case doesn't deliver -12 V. The 4/6xx CPU needs -12 V at a
few mA only for the serial lines. It will run with a framebuffer, but
you can't use the serial lines. I solved this problem with a simple
charge pump voltage inverter that generates about -10 V from +12 V that
I mounted in the 3/60 PSU. I have a shematic in PS somewhere.

> basement (plus many 72" racks elsewhere) if I didn't think big stuff
Well, as long as you don't need 30 A (smal config, peak 130 A at power
on) three phase 400 V power for a single computer... (I know someone
with a machine like that.) 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 16:50:00 2003

--- Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Ewwww. A Clasic might be the slowest sun4m machine ever build. 

It is.  OTOH, I paid $5 for it several years ago (diskless with 24MB
of RAM and a password-protected NVRAM ;-)  At the same time, a SS5
was running around $150-$300, depending on what add-ons were under
the hood.  By comparison, SS5s were $35-$50 at Dayton last year, as
were SS10s and SS20s this year.

> AFAIK it is comparable in "slowness" to a IPX.

Double the raw MIPS, but not really any faster in practice.  The
advantage is a) memory size (128MB max vs 64MB) and compatibility
with later versions of Solaris (because it's a sun4m, not a sun4c).
The OpenBoot PROM is newer, but that matters little when running.

No speed daemon, but the Classic has a little more longevity than
an IPX.

> you can't use the serial lines.

*That* was it.  Thanks.  I had wanted to test the 4/6xx, but for reasons
I don't recall, I wasn't able to use a framebuffer (I know I had plenty
of CG3 and CG6 cards lying around).  In the end, I gave up and swapped
that 4/6xx board for a couple of IPXs and some assorted accessories.  I
did later sell the IPXs for a fair sheckel, so I think I came out on top
of the deal.  The 4/6xx board had 0MB of RAM and an old Ross CPU, so it
wasn't exactly the most valuable thing at the time, but I'm not sure I
would trade it now if I had it to do all over again.

> with a machine like that.) 

Nope... my max power requirements at home are satisfied by a 30A 110V
single-phase receptacle (installed) and a 20A 110V outlet (for the
DEC 4000-710 - not yet installed).  Everything else just plugs into
ordinary wall sockets.

-ethan

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 17:39:00 2003

> happened at 380 or 500 vac?
That's why we learn (at young age ;-) not to pee on wires. Really.

[ I will not tell you about how I tricked my younger sis into
  holding two knitting pins stuck into an outlet, as this would
  surely give you the impression i am evil.  hmm. i was, perhaps ;-]

> even for a short time i felt my shock...
Oh, I have enjoyed quite a few shocks myself, and hey, I'm still
around...

--fred

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jun 4 23:52:00 2003

> especially if they are the 1 or 3 gig variety 

Wow, thats even farther than it would be for me.  I'm at 370 miles.

Those drives are very nice reliable drives, though.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 00:09:00 2003

On Wednesday 04 June 2003 11:38 pm, Chad Fernandez wrote:
> jamesd wrote:
> > yeah 2x 15A curcuits would not be a problem, but i think it might be 220v
> > to the power supply and from then on the rest is just DC lines to each
> > component, begining to think I should just forget about the whole deal,
> > not worth the 500mile round trip drive and a hernia of moving a 600 lbs.
> > beast...
> >
> > I figured out what i thougt was a masive powersupply drawer was really
> > holding 5 or so Full Height SCSI drives that were either 1. 3. or 9 gig's
> > each not really econmical to use these days given when the power to run
> > them costs. especially if they are the 1 or 3 gig variety
>

it was 266 each way for me... i'm in milwaukee.... 

yeah the drives will probably out last any modern PC type power supply you 
connect them too... whitch should be about 8 hours of life.... for the 
powersupply that is...

James
Wisconsin, USA

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 00:14:01 2003

> it was 266 each way for me... i'm in milwaukee.... 

Was?  I thought you hadn't gone yet.
 
I was going to say... all this talk about old Sun hardware and I'm
minded to ask if you do go and you don't want to haul the 4/6xx,
if you'd pull the CPU board and ship it to me for a reasonable amount.
I still have this 3/60 case here...

-ethan

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 01:04:01 2003

> it was 266 each way for me... i'm in milwaukee.... 

Oh that was round trip?  I didn't see that part.  370 was one way for me :-)

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 07:28:00 2003

> I still have this 3/60 case here...

SUN STATUS.... 

i emailed the seller to get more info on the items, found out some interesting 
stuff

the Sun has a CPU board and IPI Disk controller only... it worked a few years 
back, but when started it this time  it wouldn't boot, he had no time to 
investigate. 

It weghts 500 lbs. 

the monitor is 19"-20" color hires color 

what i thought was a nice "LITTLE HP box" that i was going to turn into a scsi 
disk box, weights  750lbs. 

so i emailed him and told him i would not be picking up the auction, because 
there would be no way to move it from my ford explorer to my basement and the 
wear and tear of hailing "1200 lbs. was just too great." I offered to give 
people on this list  the information about the machine and his where abouts 
so someone more local could contact him. I haven't heard back from him. He 
seems pretty cool, I have paid for the auction so I don't think i have to 
worry about ebay's non paying bidding rules.  I really would of liked the 
monitor but a 500 mile road trip for a 20" monitor is not really worth it. 

James Dickens 
Milwaukee, Wisconsin

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 09:24:00 2003

--- jamesd <[email-masked]> wrote:
> SUN STATUS.... 
> 
> i emailed the seller to get more info on the items, found out some
> interesting stuff
> 
> the Sun has a CPU board and IPI Disk controller only...

That's typical of later VME Sun cages.  There's so much you can load
onto the CPU board that unless you have wierd comms needs, there's
not much call for VME peripherals.

> it worked a few years back, but when started it this time  it wouldn't
> boot, he had no time to investigate. 

Bet it's the NVRAM battery.

> It weghts 500 lbs. 

Yes.
 
> the monitor is 19"-20" color hires color 

Typical of a Sun box.  

> what i thought was a nice "LITTLE HP box" that i was going to turn into a
> scsi disk box, weights  750lbs. 

That seemed clear from the pictures on the auction... an *empty* 6' rack
is between 75 and 125lbs, depending on skins, doors, etc.

> so i emailed him and told him i would not be picking up the auction,
> because there would be no way to move it from my ford explorer to my
> basement and the wear and tear of hailing "1200 lbs. was just too great."

The seller should have been kind to bidders and mentioned the physical
scope of it (for the unwary), but many of us on the list have made
road-trips just as you describe: hundreds of miles for hundreds of lbs
of gear.

> I have paid for the auction so I don't think i have to
> worry about ebay's non paying bidding rules.  

Probably not.  I've won an auction or two that I offered to pay the
bid price and not the shipping and let the seller keep the item and
re-list it.  Make most sense when the shipping is several times the
cost of the item (and I've found it locally before the auction closed
for less than the advertised S&H).

> I really would of liked the monitor but a 500 mile road trip for a 20"
> monitor is not really worth it. 

It's likely to be a fixed-scan monitor, so if you were planning on 
using it for your PC, it's a bad match.  I happen to have a Sun 20E20
which _does_ sync up to ordinary machines, but it has a 13W3 connector
(I was able to scrounge the requisite adapter locally) meaning that
unadapted, it won't physically fit on consumer-grade hardware (and some
newer Sun hardware).

I was happy to find that 20E20 at the local Uni surplus depot for $20.
Its 17" little-brother ($15) is on my SPARC5.

The optical-drive SCSI cabinet looked like it would be fun to play with.
We installed one like that at Lucent about 5 years ago.  Very expensive.

-ethan

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 15:02:01 2003

On Wed, 4 Jun 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> minded to ask if you do go and you don't want to haul the 4/6xx, if
> you'd pull the CPU board and ship it to me for a reasonable amount. I
> still have this 3/60 case here...

I know of someone not too far from the area listed on the seller's page
that might be interested in giving the system a home, but I'll have to
check with him and see.

-Toth

---

From: Mike Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 04:58:32 2003

I was just typing a message into a web forum, hit the post reply button, 
and while I am waiting I realize, SHEESH, this is just an graphical upgrade 
of the 3270 CICS I was running 20 years ago. Except not as fast.