Subject: FWD: FS: RARE black Bell & Howell Apple ][ Plus with drives

From: [email-masked] (Mike Kenzie)
Date: Mon Jul 21 13:15:05 2003

> FS: RARE black Bell & Howell Apple ][ Plus with drives
> 
> Selling an excellent condition black Bell & Howell Apple ][ Plus with
> matching black drives. This is a genuine Apple computer, distributed
> through Bell & Howell (has both companies logos on the nameplates of the
> computer and disk drives).
> 
> Asking $499.00 US or best offer.
> 
> Please email me for more details at:
> [email-masked]

--
Collector of Vintage Computers
http://www.ncf.ca/~ba600/

---

From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 10:15:00 2003

Does anyone know how "rare" these things really are? I've got one laying
around somewheres. Works too, but there's a hole drilled into the side so
it's not exactly museum quality.

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 12:09:01 2003

> it's not exactly museum quality.

Not very.  Perhaps "uncommon", but just so.  They were made in the
thousands, perhaps tens of thousands.  If you go to enough school garage
sales you may just come across a stack or pallet of them.

No, I don't have one.  I've never even seen one in person (I don't think).
But they're not rare.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

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From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 12:16:17 2003

I agree with Sellam (get the record books out) *grin*

I keep seeing them listed on ebay as "K-RAD K00L RAAAARE Black Bell & Howell
Apple"... sheesh... while I do not have one, I have seen lots and lots of them
both in the wild and in collectors hands. They don't seem particularly rare to
me.

Jay West

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From: Fred Cisin <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 12:49:01 2003

> both in the wild and in collectors hands. They don't seem particularly rare to

Yep.
The schools were saturated with them.
Besides a couple of trivial differences to help them withstand classroom
abuse, there was an issue of purchasing.
Hell & Bowell was an existing line item on every years budget (for AV
stuff), so ordering anything from B&H was trivially easy, whereas ordering
a "COMPUTER!" had to go through permission from "district data processing"
AND "purchasing" had never heard of, and didn't want to do business with
some "tiny" startup named after a fruit.  Ordering IBM was easier with
"purchasing", but still incurred the obstacles with "district data
processing".

Ordering a black apple was easy.  just sneak it through in the AV budget.

---

From: "Ernest" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 18:37:27 2003

> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Jason McBrien

> it's not exactly museum quality.

Well, they don't seem to be extremely rare but they aren't always easy to
find. I think the ebay prices are a little inflated but people seem to be
willing to spend $300 to $400 dollars for them on a consistant basis. I have
one, and several people I know locally have them, so my experience has been
that they aren't very rare at all -just expensive.

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 04:11:00 2003

On Tue, 22 Jul 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> > Does anyone know how "rare" these things really are? I've got one
> > laying around somewheres. Works too, but there's a hole drilled into
> > the side so it's not exactly museum quality.
>
> No, I don't have one.  I've never even seen one in person (I don't
> think). But they're not rare.

At one time I used one on a daily basis. I've not come across too many in
the surplus market. I'd like to find one eventually, but there is no way
I'm going to pay ebay value for one...

I do have one of the matching drives in storage, so maybe it will attract
the rest of the system ;)

I also used to use a clone type Apple II at one time, but I don't remember
who made it. Its case vaguely reminded me of an Apple III. It had two
built-in 5.25" floppy drives in the upper section of the case below where
the monitor sat.

-Toth

---

From: "peter tremewen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 04:46:01 2003

Hi all,

        I have had for some time in my collection some bare Apple II mother
boards. I would love to test these and see if thery are working, shouldn't
be a problem for two of them, but the third seems to be missing the Bios. I
believe this board to be a "clone", It has the Z80 mounted on board. How
many people where producing these boards?? Is there any chance of coming
across a BIOS chip for this M/Board?? If some one can provide me with the
contents of the Eprom I can burn it from a file and test it if necasary.

        I'm also after info on mods to these motherboards. One of the boards
has a jumper from the keyboard conector to the NE558, and i'd love to know
what this does. Like wise i'd love to have info on the I.C. tester that was
available as a kit for the Apple. If anyone has details or knows where I
might be able to get hold of them feel free to inform me.

        On A lighter note, I just won a Koala Graphics pad on Ebay to suit
my working machine. . I'm not sure how rare these things really are, but at
$30 Au couldn't resist the buy, figured even if this was a bit over priced
it will still be worth it. I've never been really big on Apples before, more
of a commodore man myself, But i'm finally getting around to cleaning up the
"Apple" section of the collection. Hopefully i'll be able to get hold of
even more interesting stuff on Ebay and other interesting places.......

                Peter T.

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 09:51:00 2003

> be a problem for two of them, but the third seems to be missing the Bios. I

Apple ]['s didn't have "BIOS".  They had ROM ;)

> many people where producing these boards?? Is there any chance of coming

There were dozens of clone manufacturers for the Apple ][.

> contents of the Eprom I can burn it from a file and test it if necasary.

You most likely don't need to go through all that trouble.  Just take the
ROMs from any other Apple ][ motherboard and pop them into this one.  For
minimal system operation you can just transfer ROM F8.  For BASIC, you
also want ROM-D0, ROM-D8, ROM-E0, ROM-E8 and ROM-F0.

--

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 15:08:50 2003

Hey Toth!

   I have a black Bell & Howell Apple II but no drives. I can give those
drives of your's a home if they need one. :-)

    Joe

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From: peter tremewen <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jul 24 05:49:00 2003

Hi,

> Apple ]['s didn't have "BIOS".  They had ROM ;)

        I knew I had that wrong, MMMmmmm  ROM  I had allmost forgoten that
term.......

> also want ROM-D0, ROM-D8, ROM-E0, ROM-E8 and ROM-F0.

        Thanks for the tip, The board only has one ROM socket,  so i'll try
F8, I'm not too sure if the board works, i'll have to dig out the apropriate
monitor and give it a go.......

                The Sinister Dragon......

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu Jul 24 05:55:01 2003

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, peter tremewen wrote:

> > > across a BIOS chip for this M/Board?? If some one can provide me
> > > with the contents of the Eprom I can burn it from a file and test it
> > > if necasary.
> >
> > You most likely don't need to go through all that trouble.  Just take
> > the ROMs from any other Apple ][ motherboard and pop them into this
> > one.  For minimal system operation you can just transfer ROM F8.  For
> > BASIC, you also want ROM-D0, ROM-D8, ROM-E0, ROM-E8 and ROM-F0.
>
>         Thanks for the tip, The board only has one ROM socket, so i'll
> try F8, I'm not too sure if the board works, i'll have to dig out the
> apropriate monitor and give it a go.......

You could always boot an AppleSoft BASIC disk, no?

Peace...  Sridhar

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From: "Steven N. Hirsch" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jul 24 06:05:00 2003

> built-in 5.25" floppy drives in the upper section of the case below where

Sounds like a Basis 108

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jul 24 12:06:01 2003

> monitor and give it a go.......

Well, that is a bit different, isn't it?  Is it possible they designed in
a higher density ROM and had everything on one chip?  In that case,
putting in the F8 ROM most likely won't work.

Can you supply a photo of the mainboard?

--

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jul 24 12:07:10 2003

> You could always boot an AppleSoft BASIC disk, no?

The BASIC is in ROM, not to mention the system boot code :(

--

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jul 25 21:47:00 2003

On Thu, 24 Jul 2003, Steven N. Hirsch wrote:
> > I also used to use a clone type Apple II at one time, but I don't
> > remember who made it. Its case vaguely reminded me of an Apple III. It
> > had two built-in 5.25" floppy drives in the upper section of the case
> > below where the monitor sat.
>
> Sounds like a Basis 108

It doesn't look like one of those, but I also found other photos while
searching for that one, and I believe the system was a Franklin Ace 1200.
I distinctly remember the *two* built-in floppy drives in the top part of
the case. I also remember the power switch being on the side of the case,
not the usual back/right location of true Apple systems. Does anyone have
one of these in their collection? That was the only one of those I've ever
seen/used, and I've not (yet) seen one in a surplus shop or auction.

-Toth

---

From: Dan Veeneman <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jul 25 22:45:01 2003

At 09:57 PM 7/25/03 -0500, you wrote:
>I believe the system was a Franklin Ace 1200.

I have two Franklin Ace 1000 Plus machines, which have a
single 5-1/4" floppy drive in a housing above the CPU.
The 1200 apparently is an 1000 Plus with two drives.

The power switch is on the back, right next to the power plug.
According to the photo at the bottom of this page:
http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/Peaks/9595/franklin.html
the power switch for the 1200 is also on the back.

Cheers,

Dan
www.decodesystems.com/wanted.html

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jul 25 23:10:00 2003

On Fri, 25 Jul 2003, Dan Veeneman wrote:
> > I believe the system was a Franklin Ace 1200. I distinctly remember
> > the *two* built-in floppy drives in the top part of the case. I also
> > remember the power switch being on the side of the case, not the usual
> > back/right location of true Apple systems. Does anyone have one of
> > these in their collection? That was the only one of those I've ever
> I have two Franklin Ace 1000 Plus machines, which have a single 5-1/4"
> floppy drive in a housing above the CPU. The 1200 apparently is an 1000
> Plus with two drives.
>

I wonder if they had two revisions of the 1200? I sure seem to remember it
having the power switch on the right side of the case. It could be that
I'm just thinking of yet another computer's power switch location. I'm
quite sure that the system I used was a 1200, and I am starting to
remember more about the internals as I found more photos.

-Toth

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 03:01:00 2003

> seen/used, and I've not (yet) seen one in a surplus shop or auction.

I've got one.

--

---

From: "Mike van Bokhoven" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 19:23:00 2003

> also want ROM-D0, ROM-D8, ROM-E0, ROM-E8 and ROM-F0.

I seem to recall it's necessary to be a bit careful with this - the original
Apple II series (II, II+) used ROM ICs that were basically pin-compatible
with standard EPROMS, but had an inverted enable line or something of the
sort. Clone manufacturers simply used normal EPROMS. Hence, even if the
actual contents of a clone EPROM is the same as the original Apple II ROM,
you can't swap the two and have it work.

It's a pity I can't remember the exact details; anyway, the practical
upshot is that you can't use clone EPROMSs in real Apple IIs, or vice versa.

Exception time: I once had an Apple II clone that used actual Apple ROM, it
must have been licensed. The brand was Med Fly (yes, weird, these machines
were sold into hospitals and doctors' surgeries).

Mike.

---

From: peter tremewen <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 19:35:00 2003

Thanks for the tip,

         If I can learn if this was done or not, and how it was done, I'll
build an "adaptor" to make sure I get the signals around the right way, and
everything else in the correct spots. It's not the first time I have heard
of manufacturers of computers doing this.

                The Sinister Dragon.

> > You most likely don't need to go through all that trouble.  Just take
the

---

From: "Rick Bensene" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 20:54:00 2003

Hello, all,

I am in the process of building a new home.  However, the process isn't
simple.  We can't afford two mortgage payments at once.  So, we are
building a nice shop building on our property first.
We'll then move a bunch of our stuff into the shop building, and live in
a motor home on the property once our current house sells.  Then, we'll
begin building the house.

I'm looking for advice on how to properly prepare a couple of vintage
computers and periperals
for storage in the shop.  The shop will be insulated and sheetrocked.  I
plan on having a propane
heater, and a 1-ton air conditioner to keep the temperature reasonably
well controlled during
the winter and summer. The floor is a concrete slab, and won't be
covered initially.  When the equipment first moves in, the insulation
and sheetrock, as well as heat & AC might not be in yet.
It all depends on the timing of the sale of our current house.  Given
that there might not be
good temperature control (temps could get pretty cold in winter, and hot
in summer) is there
special prep. that should be done to assure safe storage?

I have a PDP8/e system with two RK05 drives, a dual RX01 floppy drive
system, and a paper tape reader/punch.  I also have a PDP11/34A, with
two RL02 drives, three RK05 drives, and an RX02 dual floppy drive
system.

Both machines are mounted in original DEC racks.

My guess is that the machines will have to remain in stasis for a period
of about 12 months or so before I'll be in a position to be able to
revive them.

Any recommendations as to how I should prepare these machines for
moving, then storage?

Moving them in the rack could be a bit of a problem.  Would it be better
to unrack the devices
for moving, then put them back in the racks for storage? 

There'll probably be bugs that will be able to get into the equipment
which it is in storage?
Should I wrap the racks up in some kind of wrap to prevent bug-type
critters from getting inside?
If so, do I have to be concerned about condensation or 'stale air'
causing any problems?
Perhaps a couple of good-sized dessicant packs should be put in there if
I seal them up?

I'd appreciate hearing from anyone who's had good luck with short-term
storage of old computers.

Thanks,
Rick Bensene

---

From: Martin Scott Goldberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 21:59:01 2003

I'm hoping someone on the list can help.  I rescued an IMSAI 8080, as well
as a large (and heavy) dual 8" drive chasis (fully enclosed).  

The IMSAI is stocked full of cards which I haven't figured out what they
are yet as they're in pretty tight and I'm afraid of breaking something 
yanking them out.  I'm assuming at least one of them is a terminal
interface card and another an interface for the drives.

Here's the two problems with the unit though:

1) It appears to be missing the main processor card.  Everything else
looks mint, including the control panel and the ribbon from the pannel
to the control/processor card is intact as well.

2) The people (the university janitorial staff) that were throwing it out,
cut off the power cord.  Hence there is a stub of a cord connected to the
power supply now running out the back.

I'm basicly looking for any help/suggestions in how to indentify the cards
and what I can do to fix the other two problems.  Thanks!

Marty

---

From: "Patrick Rigney" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jul 26 22:32:00 2003

Rick,

Dredging out things from a (mostly) past life... if the concrete slab under
your shop is new, it will cure hard enough to walk (and build) on quickly,
but it will continue to give off heat and moisture at noticeable levels for
at least 30 days.  The heat is a trivial novelty, but the moisture is enough
that if walls and windows and built over and around it, your windows can
drip sweat profusely and bloom mildew at any temperature.  This is certainly
well above desirable levels of humidity for any electronics (vintage or
otherwise), as well as metal tools, etc., and could get you off to a bad
start.  Good ventilation during curing helps a lot, but that may be at odds
with temperature control.  If the slab has been around a while, though, it's
probably not an issue, unless there's water under it.

Patrick

> Behalf Of Rick Bensene
> Sent: Saturday, July 26, 2003 6:43 PM
> To: [email-masked]
> Subject: How to store (short-term) old computers?
>
>
> Hello, all,
>

---

From: Don Maslin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 27 18:47:00 2003

> and sheetrock, as well as heat & AC might not be in yet.

Frankly, I would worry more about possible damage being incurred
during this installation than I would about temperature cycles.

						- don