Subject: Re: The very first personal computers - How many are left?

From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 8 21:02:01 2003

>From: "The Design Fort DTP" <[email-masked]>
>
>Hi all,
>
>One thing I was always interested in - and the visitors in my Computer
>Museum often want to know - is how many of the very first personal computers
>are still in existence. By first PCs I mean the following machines:
>Kenbak 1
>Scelbi 8h
>Mark-8
>IBM 5100
>Apple 1
>Altair 8800
>IMSAI 8080

Hi
 Missed the Poly88.
Dwight

>
>I know it's quite difficult to figure out how many Altairs or IMSAIS are
>still around. But a search on the Mark-8 e.G. (on the Internet) turned out
>that there are only a handful still in existence.
>
>Greetings
>Herbert

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 9 02:32:00 2003

> >are still in existence. By first PCs I mean the following machines:

Well, for that matter there's the Ithaca Intersystems DPS-1, Compal-80,
Sphere 6800, SWTPc 6800, Intel MCS-4, Intel MCS-8, KIM-1, Jolt, etc. (all
within the time frame between the Kenbak 1 and the IMSAI 8080).

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

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From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Apr 10 11:20:35 2003

> within the time frame between the Kenbak 1 and the IMSAI 8080).

And dont forget the little Ebka Industries Familiarizor 6502
:))

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 4.0 am 03./04. Mai 2003 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu Apr 10 16:28:00 2003

[...]

>  Missed the Poly88.

If the IBM 5100 is classed as an 'early personal computer', why isn't the 
HP9830 also included? The 9830 came out in 1973 (I think, maybe 1974). It 
had a cut-down BASIC in ROM (no string variables, for one thing, but it 
_is_ BASIC) which could be extended by plug-in ROM modules (Matix 
Operations, String Variables, Extended I/O, Plotter, Terminal Emulator, 
etc all exist). It could take up to 16K bytes of RAM, had a full-size 
QWERTY keybard and a 1-line 32 character display. Oh, and 4 I/O slots. 

Is the only reason this is not classed as an 'early personal computer' 
the fact that it says '9830 Calculator' on the nameplate?

-tony

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu Apr 10 17:46:01 2003

> On Thu, 10 Apr 2003, Tony Duell wrote:
> 
> > If the IBM 5100 is classed as an 'early personal computer', why isn't
> > the HP9830 also included? The 9830 came out in 1973 (I think, maybe
> > 1974). It had a cut-down BASIC in ROM (no string variables, for one
> > thing, but it _is_ BASIC) which could be extended by plug-in ROM modules
> > (Matix Operations, String Variables, Extended I/O, Plotter, Terminal
> > Emulator, etc all exist). It could take up to 16K bytes of RAM, had a
> > full-size QWERTY keybard and a 1-line 32 character display. Oh, and 4
> > I/O slots.
> >
> Was it aimed or marketed at the general computing market?  Could it be
> easily used as a general-purpose computer?

It _is_ a general-purpose computer. Turn it on, you get a prompt. Start 
typing in BASIC program lines. Type RUN (or press the RUN key) to execute 
your program. The only calculator feature is that you cna type in an 
expression and press EXECUTE (rather than END LINE) to evaluate it.

There's also a built-in digital cassette drive for saving programs and 
data. Up to 10 more such drives can be added externally. There's also an 
option that I've never seen that allows up to 4 9830s to share a rack of 
demountable hard disks (I think RK05-like packs). 

If you insist that a 'computer' must be able to process strings as well 
as numbers then you'd have to add the String Variable ROM. This is an 
option, but it's not particularly rare.

If you insist that a 'computer' must have I/O facilities, well, the 9830 
has a built-in interface for the 9866 printer. This is a 7 bit (!) 
parallel port, a bit like Centronics. There are also 4 slots for HP 
interfaces. There are built-in software drivers for a printer interface 
and also for a special HP card reader or paper tape reader that simulates 
a keyboard. For other I/O operations you need the Extended I/O ROM. There 
were 8 bit parallel, BCD, RS232 and HPIB interfaces at least.

These ROMs come in 2 versions. Either as a PCB that fits inside the 
machine (there are 3 such slots) which had to be installed by HP 
engineers [1], or as a user-installable cartridge that fits into one of 5 
slots in a little cage behind a door on the left side of the machine. 
Most ROMs came in both versions, some came as a cartridge only.

[1] No idea why. The procedure for installing such a ROM is : Remove top 
cover. Remove 1 more screw and the PCB hold-down clamps. Put the ROM PCB 
in the slot, matching up the handle colours with the guides (I don't 
think it will fit backwards anyway). Put the machine back together.

-tony

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Apr 10 19:06:01 2003

> the fact that it says '9830 Calculator' on the nameplate?

It probably has more to do with the fact that it is not heralded nearly as
much as the other machines mentioned.

When people first start collecting they typically go after the more common
names: Altair, IMSAI, etc.  Once they mature as collectors, they start to
discover that there are a large number of other machines from the same
era.

I think the list posted is representative of a not so mature collector.

--

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From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Apr 10 20:08:00 2003

> I think the list posted is representative of a not so mature
collector.

I don't know if maturity has anything to do with it.  I think the other
names mentioned are just more recognizable (or heralded, as you said).
Why?  Because the machines mentioned had more of an impact on the
industry or they were more advertised or more common or all of the
above.

People collect what they are excited about and that usually doesn't
include more obscure machines.

I have hundreds of computer magazines from the seventies and eighties.
I rarely see an ad for HP 9830 but I see ads for IMSAI, Altair and other
mentioned machines a ton.

It's the recognition factor.  Besides, the IMSAI starred in a movie! :)

Speaking of HPs, though, I just came across a small collection of ROM
drawers (82936A) and two RAM modules (82903A - 16k and 82907A - 32k) at
Weird Stuff.  The ROM drawers all have at least one ROM in them and
several have multiples.  Most have the "Advanced Prgm." ROM but there
are copies of "Mass Storage", "I/O", "Matrix 1 and 2" and "Plotter
Printer."

It might be time to pull out the 85 to play.

   Erik

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From: Dan Veeneman <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Apr 10 20:56:00 2003

> include more obscure machines.

I'd like to find an HP 9831.  I wrote a fair amount of software for it
back in 1981 or so, but haven't seen one since.   I know Tony has one,
but he's across the pond (Atlantic Ocean) and wouldn't part with it
in any case.

Is that obscure enough?

> mentioned machines a ton.

For the terminally curious, I have a scan of an ad for the 9830 here:
http://www.decodesystems.com/hp9830-ad.html

This may be a good time to ask again if anyone has a copy of the
Service Manual for the HP 9830.  If so, please contact me off-list.

Cheers,

Dan

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Apr 10 22:34:01 2003

> industry or they were more advertised or more common or all of the

First, when I say "maturity" I mean in the sense of becoming more involved
as a computer collector and learning more about the history.  I know when
I first started to collect in earnest I wanted nothing more than an IMSAI
8080.  I now realize there are far more interesting machines from the same
era.

The machines mentioned did indeed have a significant impact on the future
of the industry, but it neglects many more machines that were equally (if
not more) significant.

> include more obscure machines.

Yes, but I tend to see it more as the difference between fad collecting
and collecting based on learned knowledge of the history.

> mentioned machines a ton.

You're not reading the right journals.

--

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From: "R. D. Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Apr 10 23:16:00 2003

> 8080.  I now realize there are far more interesting machines from the same

While I'm probably not a computer "collector," in the sense that some
use to describe a collector, even though I do collect computers, the
historical significance of some systems has been of much interest to
me for many years.  For example, over a decade ago, I began collecting
much information about PERQ graphics workstations... I've many
looseleaf binders (over a dozen, IIRC) filled with printed e-mail
discissions about them with people who created, used and manufatured
them.  That, I didn't really view as an aspect of collecting, however;
it was mostly an excercise aimed at satisfying my own curiosity, but
with hacking and preservation in mind.  Whether the notebooks will
ever mean anything to anyone else, or find their way to the recyclers
some day when I'm gone, time will tell.

-- 
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
[email-masked]  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

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From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Apr 11 00:58:00 2003

> HP9830 also included?

Why stop there; why not the HP 9100A?  As some may recall, Wired
declared it the "first" personal computer in that, inter alia, it was
the supposedly the first device that was marketed using the term
"personal computer" -- way back in 1968.

http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.12/mustread.html?pg=11

-W

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri Apr 11 13:23:11 2003

> Why stop there; why not the HP 9100A?  As some may recall, Wired

The 9100 _is_ user-programmable, it does do calculations. It's also a 
very nice machine.

However, a working definition that I use is that a 'calculator' is 
keystroke-programmable -- there's a key marked 'SIN' say that calculates 
the sine of an angle. If you want to use that in a program, you press the 
SIN key, you don't type S,I,N.

A computer has an alphanumeric keyboard, and you do type out function 
names, etc, like that.

It's an arbitrary definition, sure. And to be honest I don't normally 
care about it -- I collect just about anything that computes/calculates. 
Whether it's called a computer or not. But I was a bit worried that if 
I'd suggested the 9100, then people would have had good reasons why it 
wasn't a computer. There are no such reasons (AFAIK) for the 9830.

The other point is that the 9830 is fairly similar (to the user) to the 
IBM5100. It's about the same size (albeit with only a 1-line display), it 
runs a high-level language from internal ROM, it has built-in mass 
storage, etc. And yet the 5100 is a bit later than the 9830. Why the 
former gets all the glory is beyond me...

-tony

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Apr 11 14:48:01 2003

> former gets all the glory is beyond me...

A multi-line display on a CRT helps a lot ;)

--

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From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Apr 11 15:07:00 2003

> A computer has an alphanumeric keyboard, and you do type out function 

I'm SURE that you didn't mean to exclude a row of 8 toggle switches, nor a
hex keypad (ala Kim-1)

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri Apr 11 17:04:35 2003

> A multi-line display on a CRT helps a lot ;)

Sure, as does a graphical display, and many other features that came out 
later. Point is, the HP9830 _was_ earlier than the IBM5100, and 
presumably HP couldn't justify providing a CRT display on it (they 
certainly could have designed one -- they had CRT displays on larger 
computers at the time). 

If you want to consider _early personal computers_ then IMHO you have to 
consider the HP9830...

-tony

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri Apr 11 17:04:44 2003

> I'm SURE that you didn't mean to exclude a row of 8 toggle switches, nor a

No, of coruse I didn't :-). Very bad wording on my part. I think what I 
meant to say was a 'calculator' has a key-per-function, a computer 
generally doesn't.

-tony

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From: "Lawrence Walker" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Apr 11 17:42:23 2003

On 8 Apr 2003, , Dwight K. Elvey wrote:

> >One thing I was always interested in - and the visitors in
> >my Computer Museum often want to know - is how many of the
> >very first personal computers are still in existence. By
> >first PCs I mean the following machines: Kenbak 1 Scelbi 8h
> >Mark-8 IBM 5100 Apple 1 Altair 8800 IMSAI 8080
> 
> Hi
>  Missed the Poly88.
> Dwight
> 

 And also the MICOM 2000. The first Canadian-produced 
computer and it came fully assembled.(!) In 1975, by 
Stephen Dorsey who had earlier developed the worlds 
first programmable word processor under the AES label
in 1972.

Lawrence

lgwalker@ mts.net

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Apr 11 19:46:00 2003

> If you want to consider _early personal computers_ then IMHO you have to

I was being somewhat facetious.  I'll be the first to say that the 9830 is
a computer.  In fact there is no question in my mind and no need to even
have to argue for this.

--

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun Apr 13 11:44:32 2003

Peace...  Sridhar