Subject: RE: Oldest computer still in current use

From: "UnRooster" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 10 14:10:00 2003

What about Commodore 64?

http://dunkels.com/adam/tfe/index.html

>1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal 
>operational use
>
>2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet
>
>3: What is the oldest connected to the internet AND hosting web pages 
>that can be visited (I know of an Atari that is acting as a web server, 
>don't remember the URL, but it shouldn't be tough to find... didn't know 
>if there was something older)

---

From: Barry Skidmore <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 10 14:36:00 2003

Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11.

-- 
Barry Skidmore           | Hobbyist Systems:  
[email-masked]  | C64/128
Red Hat Linux 8.0        | MicroVAX 3100-40, OpenVMS
Postfix 1.1.11           | Mac SE/30's
--

---

From: "R. D. Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 10 21:00:00 2003

> What about Commodore 64?

Hardly.  That's one of those newfangled little computers of relatively
recent vintage.  It doesn't seem all that long since my C-64 was
brand spanking new.  Does that mean that I'm getting old? ;-)

-- 
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
[email-masked]  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 10 21:18:00 2003

The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military server
somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their equipment out
every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other branches only upgrade
after every user who knows how to run the system is dead/retired. Probably
some computer setup for the social security database, or liscense plate
server or other mundane task.

Besides im shure there are tons of Sinclair's running chemical plant
controllers in the Ukraine somewhere that are at least older then the C64.

What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's? Or
is this just personal computers?

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 10 21:32:00 2003

>Even better, how about the Digital PDP-11.

Doesn't someone have a PDP-8/e hooked up to the Internet in such a manner that visitors to his site can run stuff on it?

> > >1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal

Define what you mean by "Oldest Computer or Computer System".  That can figure heavily into the correct answer.  After all, systems that you might not consider still under production, such as the PDP-10 or PDP-11 are to at least a certain extent (and I don't mean emulation).  Also, if emulation counts, that might skew the answer as well.  Remember emulation has been used for production systems for a *LONG* time.

There are still PDP-8's, PDP-10's and PDP-11's in daily use.  I'm sure there are at least a couple older ones out there.  Just look for industrial and scientific applications.

> > >2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet

Well, various platforms that were connected to Arpanet are still being used.

>> >if there was something older)

I'm aware of systems running TOPS-20 and RT-11 serving web pages.

			Zane

-- 
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| [email-masked] (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

---

From: VaxCat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 12:00:00 2003

The whole oldest computer on the net thread reminded me of a story
a friend told me.

THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER

He was called in to perform some maintenance on a Novell server.

All the workstations in the office had various partitions of it
mounted and they'd been using it for years.

So Gary, my friend, goes to sit at the console.  "Where is it?",
he asks the baffled staff.

"Uh...we don't know."

Unbelieving, he seeks to verify that nobody in the company actually
knows where the server is.  Apparently, they'd hired a firm that had 
since gone out of business to install and maintain it.  Nobody else 
ever touched it.

So Gary goes into the telephone room where all the ethernet terminates
and the server would logically be.  This is old 10base2 coax.  But when
he looks where the coax should terminate, it doesn't.  It continues
THROUGH the wall, down in a tight little hole in the corner.

So, he thinks, it must be in the room on the other side.  Ah ha!  He
goes to the other side...no cable, no server.  So, scratching his head,
he goes into the adjacent rooms.  Same story.

He goes back in to the telephone room, sees the cable go under the
wall and then it occurs to him.  Something about the distances doesn't
add up.  He paces off the distance between the wall on the telephone
room side and the wall on the other side and finds that four feet is
missing.  Finding no niches in the adjacent rooms he asks why this
might be.

"We did some construction a couple years ago to change around some of 
the offices."

The upshot is that the builders had walled the server into a little 4 
foot room with no doors and nobody had noticed for TWO YEARS.

Says something about the reliability of Novell servers, I suppose.

Anthony Clifton
Des Moines, Iowa

---

From: VaxCat <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 12:11:01 2003

Greetings,

I'm looking for a couple surplus commodore serial cables (the ones 
with the round din connectors on either end) that I can buy for a 
reasonable price.

If anyone has them, please email me with price.

I need 2 to 4 of them and will, of course, pay shipping.

(Of course, I could build them but my homemade cables never seem to work
as well as the factory made ones.  =-)

Thanks.

Anthony Clifton
Des Moines, Iowa

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 12:26:01 2003

That or the hardware the server was running on. Would hate to see the
cobwebs and dust buildup over a few years in a place like that.

---

From: JP Hindin <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 17:59:00 2003

> THE AMAZING VANISHING NOVELL SERVER
I've seen this before; I wonder about its authenticity - but there's no
reason to jump to any conclusions...

On the prowl for computers at home (Wellington, New Zealand) I had greased
my way into a tour around a storage room of a banking centre. I was
greatly excited to discover a frightfully large IBM (if memory serves, an
S/390) with its face turned to the wall. On enquiry of possibility of my
relieving them of this waste of storage space the chap told me that he
wasn't sure why I'd want a water heater.

Unfortunately, after explaining to the fellow why it was most definately
not a water heater, the chances of picking it up become very remote.
They never explained to me why they'd put the machine in storage either :/

JP

---

From: chris <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 20:02:09 2003

On another list I am on, we were discussing why DOS is still used today 
(basic answer, because its working just fine, so why upgrade).

The following questions were posed that I don't know the answer to, but 
someone here might.

Figured this is the right place to get these questions answered.

---

From: "Stan Sieler" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 20:02:18 2003

> 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal 

Someone/group just ran a contest to find out the answer to that last year.
I don't recall who/what won, nor if I was "happy" with the result :)

A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's the
oldest one I know of.

If you want mainframes, one of our clients has an HP 3000/70 (dating back
to about 1983) still in continual daily use ... not sporadic.

-- 
Stan Sieler
[email-masked]
www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun May 11 20:02:41 2003

On Sat, 10 May 2003, TeoZ wrote:

> The oldest computer still in use has to be a government non military
> server somewhere. The military gets too much cash not to swap their
> equipment out every decade at the latest so I rule them out. Other
> branches only upgrade after every user who knows how to run the system
> is dead/retired. Probably some computer setup for the social security
> database, or liscense plate server or other mundane task.
>
> What about the computer sent out in the Voyager spacecraft in the 70's?
> Or is this just personal computers?

IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation.  I
think there's also an S/360/30 doing something.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 20:37:01 2003

> I don't recall who/what won, nor if I was "happy" with the result :)

It was, I believe, Network Magazine, and the winner was an Altair 8800
that some
business man used to do his books.

Here's another contest I found whilst searching...it's from the U of Iowa:

http://www.uiowa.edu/~fyi/issues1999/06111999/computer.html

According to this:

http://www.cronaca.com/archives/000154.html

...Australia's CSIRAC is still in operation.  But this would suggest
otherwise:

http://www.cs.mu.oz.au/csirac/

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 20:38:01 2003

> The following questions were posed that I don't know the answer to, but 

The questions are meaningless without clarification and/or parameters.

> 1: What is the oldest computer or comptuer system still in normal 

You havn't even clarified whether you mean individual machine, or design.
Individual machine: stonehenge
design: abacus

> 2: What is the oldest that is connected to the internet

Continuously connected?  or just the oldest machine that is now connected?
For example: if today somebody connects a Univac, would that count?
Are you really after which machine is the oldest of those that are
connected? or are you REALLY after whgich machine has been connected
longest?

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Mon May 12 15:34:00 2003

> A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's the

It's nowhwere near the oldest computer still in use (since it's based on 
a microprocessor), but when I need to program 1702s, I have to use my 
Intellec MCS8i, since that's the only machine I have with a suitable 
programmer. And that machine is older than an Imsai.

-tony

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 16 10:45:01 2003

On Fri, 9 May 2003, Stan Sieler wrote:

> Someone/group just ran a contest to find out the answer to that last
> year. I don't recall who/what won, nor if I was "happy" with the result
> :)
>
> A friend has an IMSAI 8080 that he still uses to burn PROMs ... that's
> the oldest one I know of.
>
> If you want mainframes, one of our clients has an HP 3000/70 (dating
> back to about 1983) still in continual daily use ... not sporadic.

I've personally seen with my own eyes an IBM S/360/30 still operating in
an industrial setting.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 16 10:48:12 2003

On Mon, 12 May 2003, Geoffrey G. Rochat wrote:

> > IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation.
>
> Having programmed IBM Series/1 computers for Citibank for many years in
> my youth, I find the concept of "full operation" as applied to the
> Series/1 quite foreign and peculiar.

They're doing motion control in an automated industrial setting.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: "Geoffrey G. Rochat" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:51:15 2003

> IBM East Fishkill still very much has Series/1's in full operation.

Having programmed IBM Series/1 computers for Citibank for many years in my
youth, I find the concept of "full operation" as applied to the Series/1
quite foreign and peculiar.

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 16 10:52:47 2003

On Sun, 11 May 2003, JP Hindin wrote:

> On the prowl for computers at home (Wellington, New Zealand) I had
> greased my way into a tour around a storage room of a banking centre. I
> was greatly excited to discover a frightfully large IBM (if memory
> serves, an S/390) with its face turned to the wall. On enquiry of
> possibility of my relieving them of this waste of storage space the chap
> told me that he wasn't sure why I'd want a water heater.
>

Rule number one:  never tell them what they've got.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: John Boffemmyer IV <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:54:18 2003

Yes, oddly enough, it at one point was sitting in the power parallel dept 
running calculations for various things while the deep blue was being 
built. I remember my father's manager complaining about IBM insisting that 
their subcontractor department had to use it and were not allowed to 
replace it. The just put in for a replacement of a "failed server" that sat 
there running fine and IBM plopped in another $150k server next to it 
without realizing it. Though, the S/360/30 was still used. Nowadays, from 
what I last heard from a guy at IBM Poughkeepsie, NY, the S/360/30 in 
question is being used to process and develop information on some of IBM's 
older but still used machines (such as software/firmware development and 
revisions, etc.). I've also heard htat a similar unit was being used by KLA 
Temcor (sp?) in robotics development and control. They seem to like coming 
to my company's shop and picking up serial and SCSI cabling for the robotic 
units to interface them with the controlling machines while they are being 
developed. Cheaper than continuously banging out proto-boards every time 
you'd like to make a change to the function or design or when you need to 
make a revision.
-John

>think there's also an S/360/30 doing something.

----------------------------------------
Founder, Lead Writer, Tech Analyst
and Web Designer Boff-Net Technologies
http://boff-net.dhs.org/index.html
---------------------------------------

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From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri May 16 11:14:54 2003

> reason to jump to any conclusions...

This is an urbane legend that I believe to be true.

Google found this : 
        http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/5/18265.html

(this probably isn't a good enough reference to guaranty authenticity,
though)

-Philip

---

From: William Donzelli <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 11:46:39 2003

> I've personally seen with my own eyes an IBM S/360/30 still operating in

For what it is worth, the Taiwanese Navy still uses circa-1944 Mk 4 TDCs 
(Torpedo Data Computers) every day on their two ancient boats. Yes, 
analog, not digital.

William Donzelli
[email-masked]

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 09:30:01 2003

> (this probably isn't a good enough reference to guaranty authenticity,

I'm still skeptical.  Think of this: what better hack than to fool some
newspaper reporter into doing a story on an old high-tech urban legend?

I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to the story, but it sounds too dumb to
have actually happened like it's told.

--

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 10:56:01 2003

On Sat, 17 May 2003, Vintage Computer Festival wrote:
> I'm sure there's a kernel of truth to the story, but it sounds too dumb
> to have actually happened like it's told.

I know one place I worked "lost" a Novell server for years, but it turned
up in the corner of someone's office when they finally found it. Yes, it
was running and being used. The only reason they started looking for it
was that they were decommissioning it...

-Toth

---

From: James Rice <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 11:22:00 2003

The same thing happenned to me.  We do medical billing systems.  As we 
were decommissioning an old coax network, people lost the drive mapping 
to some document folders.  As were had been told that only the three 
servers in the old server room were in use, we finally had to trace the 
location by cable segments off the old coax repeaters.  We found the old 
server under a desk in an unused office.  It was a Compaq Deskpro 386 
running Netware 2.15.  Uptime was over  6 years.  Funny, the power 
supply fan was so encrusted with dust that it no longer turned.  The 
supply was too hot to touch, but it was still limping along.  More 
modern equipment would have melted down. 

It turned out that the old occupant of that office had retired four 
years before and he had set up the server as an unauthorized project 
with a booleg copy of the NW 2.15 after the rest of the shop had 
upgraded to 3.x.  Then he was RIFed by early retirement.  No one else 
had even seen the server before or knew it existed.

-- 
http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 11:36:01 2003

> was that they were decommissioning it...

Sure, this is not as uncommon as one might think.

But lost behind a new wall?  I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid.  I
mean, people can exhibit amazing levels of stupidity, but it would be
incredibly naive to think that someone would take the time to cut out the
holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off
the wall.

--

---

From: James Rice <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 12:02:00 2003

In a large organization I can see how it could happen.  Walls are thrown 
up by a in-house maintance crew or an outside contractor who employes 
relatively unskilled labor  who are not paid to think.... just get the 
job done as quickly as possible.  When I was an apprentice electrician, 
if any apprentice raised a question, relevant or not, you were told to 
shut up and follow orders even if you knew it was a scewup.  Half the 
drywall people I encounter don't even speak english much less have a 
clue about what cable goes where or what it's function is.

James

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 15:01:00 2003

> But lost behind a new wall?  
> I doubt that anyone could be THAT stupid.

While I think James is right, its been occuring to me that there
is another _possible_ explanation.  What if you wanted
to bug a network ?  Using out of place technology might
stand out.  An old lost server makes for a better cover story.
Possible in that it's not probable, however.

John A.
also hooked on "The Agency"
New this fall: something else.   :-(

---

From: Geoff Reed <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 16:25:01 2003

>holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off

Behind a wall is entirely possible.  we had a contractor come in at my 
former job, and put up a new wall, they were supposed to put a door in 
another wall (we were partitioning off part of our datacenter.)  they put 
the wall up allright, but didn't put the door into the other wall first, so 
come monday morning we went to get at the 60 machines in that part of the 
datacenter.... and we couldn't...

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 17:12:00 2003

> holes and everything necessary to run the cable through, then close off

Cut holes?  Probably not..... the server was probably nudged over behind 
a wall under construction.....the wires probably would have been mudded 
over at a corner.  Someone may have even done it to be "funny".

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: Huw Davies <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 19:57:01 2003

OK, a real true story (yeah, right :-).

In my last job I was responsible for the up time of both systems and 
networks. On day, a significant proportion of the University network went 
down (the network was segmented into Western, Eastern and Central) and it 
was the Western side that went AWOL. As the sciences were on this segment 
it was noticed rather quickly.

Following the tunnels we eventually came to where the Western hub was 
supposed to be, to discover the wall (and hub) were missing. Apparently a 
new lift was being installed in the Library and the wall was in the way - I 
guess the builders didn't notice the large box with the flashing lights and 
cables attached to the wall....

Huw Davies           | e-mail: [email-masked]
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green"

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 17 22:26:00 2003

> over at a corner.  Someone may have even done it to be "funny".

I should've guessed that it would be easily possible for new levels of
human stupidity to be reached.

I retract my incredulity.

--

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun May 18 02:32:39 2003

That's not what I'm talking about.  This machine is running statistics for
badgereaders.  I believe PowerParallel operations ended in the northeast
when they closed the Kingston plant.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun May 18 02:41:36 2003

I was wrong.  All SP operations except for final testing and QA ended in
the northeast when Kingston closed.

Peace...  Sridhar