Subject: Looking for....RL02 controller for PDP-8E M8433?

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 09:50:01 2003

I've heard these really aren't to be found anywhere, but thought I'd check
with the list.

I'd like to get a disk subsystem on my PDP-8E. I've pretty much given up
that I'll ever find an RK05 drive and controller for it, so I'm now looking
to hook up an existing RL02 drive to it. I think this is done via the M8433?
Would anyone have one available for trade or purchase (the controller, not
the drive)?

Thanks!

Jay West

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 13:03:14 2003

> to hook up an existing RL02 drive to it. I think this is done via the
M8433?

If you have an 8/E, I'm afraid an M8433 won't be any use to you,
because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one.  It's meant
for a PDP-8/A.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 13:31:00 2003

--- Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > I've heard these really aren't to be found anywhere, but thought I'd
> > check with the list.

Not that you can use it (see below), but I bought one (RL8A) from a DEC
reseller for well under $100 a couple of years ago (either $30 or
$60, I can't remember now).  Cables are hard to come by, though.

> > I'd like to get a disk subsystem on my PDP-8E. I've pretty much given
> > up that I'll ever find an RK05 drive and controller for it

I understand that feeling - it took me years to track down an RK8E at
a decent price (swap) - I've had a 16-sector RK05F pack since 1984 and
have never read it (and still can't - no RK05F drive/heads)  At least
thanks to David Gesswein, I have one 16-sector RK05J pack.

> > ... so I'm now looking to hook up an existing RL02 drive to it. I think
>  this is done via the M8433?

Yes.  One RL8A (M8433) can talk to up to 4 drives, and you can have up 
to two RL8As in one OMNIBUS (but there aren't enough driver slots in
OS/8 to view all those partitions at once - you have to juggle around
a bunch).

> because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one.  It's meant

True.  Now... if you have an -8/a hex-wide *chassis*, you can mount the
KK8E CPU board set in there, or, IIRC, with OMNIBUS extension cables,
you can attach the -8/a chassis to the -8/e backplane, but if all you 
have is a single -8/e box, you are out of luck.  I have my -8/e in
test mode with the PSU sitting *next to* its box - there's room for
hex cards then, but I wouldn't want to run that way full-time.

There aren't a lot of hard disk options for a quad-wide box... floppy
(RX8E), RK05 (RK8E) and older stuff (through an external bus converter).
By the time newer disks came out, DEC was only selling hex-wide 12-bit
boxes, and all the new devices could fit on a single hex-height card
instead of several quad-height cards, so there you are.

There might be a third party quad disk controller or two, but I can't
quote vendor and model numbers.  My machines are 100% DEC.

-ethan

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 13:34:01 2003

Peter wrote....
----- Original Message ----- 
> because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one.  It's meant

Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?

Jay West

---

From: Hans B Pufal <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 13:52:00 2003

> Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?

Homebrewing an IDE interface and patching the software to run it would 
be a FUN project ;-)

   -- hbp

---

From: Marvin Johnston <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 14:08:00 2003

> Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?

I have something called a TriData recorder for my PDP-8L. Basically it
uses a type of tape cassette to record data. The person who originally
bought the machine used the cassettes to store the programs he was
writing. Then again, there is always paper/mylar tape :).

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 14:35:01 2003

> Homebrewing an IDE interface and patching the software to run it would 

I've been kicking around odd storage project ideas for *years* and
have yet to do more than putter.  I even have a couple of blank proto
boards which would save me a *bundle* on a one-off (one hex, one
quad and a couple of duals).

I keep talking myself in circles about how best to do it.  One thing
that hold me back is what chips to use for OMNIBUS interfacing.  I
know what to use for Qbus (real DEC chips + LS240s, etc.).  I know
a few things to use for the OMNIBUS (7438, 7401), but the Nat'l Semi
and other oddments are probably a poor choice for a new design.

I also gyrate into inaction about hardwired logic vs GALs vs FPGAs
vs microprocessors.  Each has its good points and bad points (some are
easier to build, some are easier to modify, some are cheaper to build)

I also get tangled up in OMNIBUS vs posi/negi-bus devices.  I have
a little of everything here, and would prefer to build as few varieties
of peripherals as possible.

Finally, given how simple some of the devices are to implement (DF-32,
RF-08, etc.), it's a choice of emulate an existing device or strike out
in an entirely new direction.  One is easier to build (but requires
software effort), the other is easier to use but requires more design
effort.

I think I'll probably be happiest building someone elses design and let
them ask/answer the hard questions.  Construction is not the hard part
for me; it's the woolgathering phase of design that I get stuck at.  I'm
happy to be part of the process of a group-think, but on my own, I just
argue myself in circles about the best approach.

-ethan

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 14:36:00 2003

> Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?

Not as such, but I did happen to run across a $300 RL8A on my quest
to answer what's in that PDP-11/35 FC... that's about 1/2 of what I
paid for my first one in 1986.  :-P  (but at least mine came with docs
and cables)

-ethan

---

From: Lawrence LeMay <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 15:44:00 2003

> Uggg... so is there hope of any attainable mass storage for my 8E? Ideas?

There are no easy solutions. 

If you have a RL02, then you need a 8/a chassis, cables to connect it to
your 8/E chassis, the Hex interface board, then the cable that goes between
the interface and first drive, and a drive terminator. Odds are you dont
have most of those parts.

If you have a 8/F or 8/M, it is possible to remove one of the case fans, 
and install the hex wide interface into the chassis. Then you just need 
the cable for the first drive and the drive terminator.

Otherwise, You need a quad wide RK05 interface (definitely available, but
probably expensive), the cable (usually not available, but possible to
manufacture), a RK05? drive, and drive terminator. Plus you need special
16 sector DECpacks to use with the RK05.

Personally, I just bought a RK05j and when they get around to shipping it,
I hope to finally have a chance of getting one of my 8/E's going with
mass storage!...

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 15:57:01 2003

--- Lawrence LeMay <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > > because it's an RL8A, which is a hex board, not a quad one.  It's
> > > meant for a PDP-8/A.
> > 
> If you have a RL02, then you need a 8/a chassis, cables... interface...
> ...cable ... terminator. Odds are you don't have most of those parts.

With several machines, *I* don't even have all of those parts (never had
any way to link up multiple backplanes)
 
> the cable for the first drive and the drive terminator.

Interesting suggestion.  I don't have either an -8/F or -8/M and would
not have thought of that.

I do not know if the same cable arrangement works for the RL8A as the
RL11, but if it did, that would be superb.  I know of (at least) three
arrangements:

  RL8A  - custom cable - Berg on one end, RL01/RL02 on the other
  RL11  - ordinary DEC 40-pin shielded cable to a transition connector
          typically bolted to the rack near the first drive
  RLV12 - custom cable, but not the same part number as the RL8A cable.

Since the transition connector is *identical* to the pair that are screwed
to the back of a drive, they can be had when scrapping a dead drive if
not already available.  The rack mounting bracket is another matter, but
that's easily fabricated/replicated.
  
> probably expensive),

Probably expensive, but not *commonly* available.

> the cable (usually not available, but possible to manufacture),

I'm going to use the one from my RKV11D (since I don't really need
an RK05 on a Qbus PDP-11 full time).  It's the same paddle and dual-
40-pin cable set.

> a RK05? drive, and drive terminator. 

Drive terminators are relatively common - M930 Unibus terminator (the short
one that you *don't* use in "modern" boxes)

> Plus you need special 16 sector DECpacks to use with the RK05.

Most rare (unless you find a cache of them).  I have many 12-sector
packs, collected over 20 years.  I have *two* 16-sector packs (also
collected over 20 years).

> Personally, I just bought a RK05j and when they get around to shipping
> it, I hope to finally have a chance of getting one of my 8/E's going
> with mass storage!...

Good luck with that.  I'm right there behind you, once I get the -8/e
debugged (got spare parts present or on the way!)  I've used RK05s
on PDP-11s, but not a PDP-8, yet.

-ethan

---

From: Guy Sotomayor <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 15:57:36 2003

> 16 sector DECpacks to use with the RK05.

The RK8E is a 3 board set that plugs into the Omnibus.  There are a set
of cables that go from the RK8E to the drive.  Taking an old BC11 cable
paddle and rigging it with connectors for the cables from the RK8E *may*
be the easiest path.  The cables from the RK8E is two ribbon cables
(forget how many conductors right now).  The drive terminator is nothing
more than a plain old M930 (Unibus terminator).

-- 

TTFN - Guy

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 16:38:00 2003

--- Guy Sotomayor <[email-masked]> wrote:
> The RK8E is a 3 board set that plugs into the Omnibus. 

With several H851s... I got a board set a while back, but no way to
interconnect the boards.  That's the biggest pain when dealing with
quad-high OMNIBUS boards.

> There are a set
> be the easiest path.

Going from scratch, I'd recommend using a dual-height prototype card
and adding your own connectors to it.  There's a source of them for
a few $$$ ($25?) but I can't find it right now.

>  The cables from the RK8E is two ribbon cables
> (forget how many conductors right now).

40 each.  Not even shielded (on my RKV11D).

>  The drive terminator is nothing more than a plain old M930 (Unibus
> terminator).

Yep.

-ethan

---

From: Hans B Pufal <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Mar 29 01:24:00 2003

> a few $$$ ($25?) but I can't find it right now.

http://www.douglas.com/hardware/pcbs/breadboards/digital.html ?

they seem more expensive than you mention

   -- hbp

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Mar 29 10:03:00 2003

> they seem more expensive than you mention

OK... $27.51 for the model I was thinking of (21-DE-77 - 0.1" grid,
dual-height, single width).

-ethan

---

From: Hans B Pufal <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Mar 29 11:46:01 2003

> dual-height, single width).

Sorry, I thought you meant quad width cards. This was the reference you 
were thinking of I presume.

   -- hbp

---

From: Patrick Finnegan <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 30 10:42:00 2003

>   RLV12 - custom cable, but not the same part number as the RL8A cable.

Does this mean it's not a straight-through cable?  I've got a
straight-thru cable going from my RLV12 to the RL02, but never got it to
work...  I don't have the transition cable/connector or external DEC cable
for the RL02 (but, yes, I do have a terminator).

Pat
--
Purdue Universtiy ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www-rcd.cc.purdue.edu

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 30 12:21:00 2003

--- Patrick Finnegan <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Does this mean it's not a straight-through cable?

I don't know.  In this particular thread what I mean by "custom cable"
is that one end of a 1/2" diameter cable with many twisted pairs has an
RL01/RL02 end, the other has a 40-pin Berg connector with no obviously
visible pattern to it.

The RL11 and RLV11 use a flat ribbon cable and a transition bracket.  It's
obvious from simple inspection which pins go where.

The RL8A and RLV12 cables that I have seen have different part numbers.
I would quote chapter and verse, but I do not know which box mine are
in to lay hands on them.  :-(

> I've got a straight-thru cable going from my RLV12 to the RL02, but
> never got it to work...  I don't have the transition cable/connector or
> external DEC cable for the RL02 (but, yes, I do have a terminator).

Hmm... I have never seen anyone do that, but in theory, if you have the
signals lined up, it should work.  Do you have the docs for the RLV12
and the RL02 to verify what signals go where?  There's a *possibility*
you have a simple mirror-image problem.  I have seen that sort of thing
crop up with flat cables and odd arrangements before - think of the
issues with DEC SDI drives and cables - odd numbers of cables between
the drive and controller don't work - you need those transition brackets
and a pair of cables in-between to flip and reflip the signals around.
DEC stuff is designed not to smoke (in 99.995% of cases) when you plug
something in backwards.

It shouldn't take verifying more than a handful of signals to establish
if your current cabling does the right thing or not.

-ethan

---

From: Lawrence LeMay <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 31 19:49:01 2003

> any way to link up multiple backplanes)

Well, I bought the cable that interconnects a quad omnibus with a hex
omnibus. So someday when I get an empty 8/A chassis, and that cable
that goes from the RL8A to the first drive, I can get a RL01 running.

> not have thought of that.

I never would have thought of that either ;) It was mentioned in one
of the old DEC 12-big SIG newsletters.

> Probably expensive, but not *commonly* available.

Oh, i disagree. I see them listed in DEC resellers lists all the time.
I usually dont want to pay their prices... For example, Omni
Systems Associates lists both a RK8E and a RK8L, either of which
would work (but, expensive). Continental Computers also lists the
boards, but their lists arent always accurate and you have to ask for
a quote. But, always mention you're a collector looking for parts as
a hobby, and many of these resellers will give reasonable quotes instead
of the 'gouge the big company' quotes.

> an RK05 on a Qbus PDP-11 full time).  It's the same paddle and dual-

Are you sure its a M993 ?

> collected over 20 years).

I bought 4 from Bruce Thompson. Also bought the quad-to-hex omnibus 
cable I mentioned previously from him.

-Lawrence LeMay

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 17:50:01 2003

A few posts back there was something about a sun box staying up six months?
Humm which release of Solaris was it that 'fixed' a documented 30,000 bugs?
There's a saying about wherever you see one cockroach there is 1000 more
hidden... *grin*

Anyways... that got me thinking so I had to check. I popped into one of our
FreeBSD web servers. It hosts a fair number of high volume sites
(stevewinwood.com, kellerwilliams.net, and some stringcheeseincident support
sites)... the current uptime is.... 5:43PM  up 353 days

yeahhhhh baby!

Jay West

---

From: John Lawson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 18:05:00 2003

On Sun, 6 Jul 2003, Jay West wrote:

> (stevewinwood.com, kellerwilliams.net,
                     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

  Wow - Keller Williams! Very Cool, I'm a Fan. Got CDs *and* T-shirts...

  We now return you to the latest round of Bickering and Billy-Bashing.

  Cheers

Funk-de-Funk

---

From: [email-masked] (Sean 'Captain Napalm' Conner)
Date: Sun Jul 6 18:06:00 2003

> sites)... the current uptime is.... 5:43PM  up 353 days

  I just retired my colocated 486 server (33Mhz, 20M RAM, Linux 2.0.39)
which had a final uptime of 444 days, 13 hours, 13 minutes.  It was probably
pumping out 2G of content each month between a dozen sites, and handling
email for half a dozen people.

  It was replaced with a more modern system that will allow us to do a bit
more than the 486 could handle (the last two or three months the machine
started crawling, but by then we were running Apache, Seminole (another web
server my friend is writing for the embedded market) and Postfix (which is a
fairly heavy SMTP server, but better than Sendmail)).

  I was happy to get over a year uptime on the system (it had been in use
for nearly four years).

  -spc (Which reminds me, I need to get it out of the car 8-)

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 18:09:01 2003

>sites)... the current uptime is.... 5:43PM  up 353 days

Yawn....  About the only time an OpenVMS system goes down is for maintenance or a power outage.  There is/was a cluster in England with an uptime of something like 19 years.

Of course this isn't to say that I haven't managed to crash an OpenVMS system, misconfiguring one, or hardware problems can result in a crash.

			Zane

-- 
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| [email-masked] (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 18:16:00 2003

> which had a final uptime of 444 days, 13 hours, 13 minutes.

Now I have something to shoot for. You can bet I will be running in circles
anytime I have to do something with that machine to keep from having to
reboot it *GRIN*

Jay West

---

From: "Kelly Fergason" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 19:28:01 2003

nah, when it gets to 600 days, let us know.

I had a sparc 10 which was rebooted when someone hit the 
big red button accidently, and then stayed up until the next 
time the big red button was hit.

was literally within 1 month of being 2 years uptime, 680ish days
as I recall...  Solaris 2.4.

a hundred Sun servers and a thousand disk drives turning off makes 
for a really interesting lack of noise....

Kelly

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
Behalf Of Jay West
Sent: Sunday, July 06, 2003 6:12 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: OT Re: OS uptimes

Jay West

---

From: Tarsi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 6 19:38:00 2003

Oh, what the hell.

Just cleaned out a P133 running Novell 3.11.  637 days up.  Fileserver for my 
business.  It hurt to take down and destroy that uptime.

Tarsi

---

From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 00:01:00 2003

> sites)... the current uptime is.... 5:43PM  up 353 days

% uptime
 9:33PM  up 418 days, 10:46, 10 users, load averages: 0.58, 0.54, 0.50

It's a NetBSD box I've got co-lo'ed.  It would've been more like 565
days, except that the hosting ISP moved their operations across town
in May of 2002.

-brian.

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 02:03:00 2003

> anytime I have to do something with that machine to keep from having
to

A few months ago, my mail server had an uptime of 416 days.  I was even
watching it to see the magic 10000 hours roll over, having postponed
the move to the new UPS just for that.  You can guess when we had the 5
minute power cut :-(

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Peter Hicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 19:45:37 2003

> sites)... the current uptime is.... 5:43PM  up 353 days

I can beat that - I've had a Linux box up for about fourteen months, until a
power failure in the datacentre (yes, this is the datacenter that boasts
VESDA, loads of kilowatts of backup generators and ultra-powerful aircon)
reset it back to zero.

Mind you, I've had a NetWare 3.11 server (ob-classic computing!) up for well
over a year, probably about 18 months.

However, this beats all of them:

   Uptime is 1048 days, 12 hours, 12 minutes
   cat6500-1>

This is a Catalyst 6506 switch at one of my sites which hasn't been down since
its installation back in August 2000!  Its the only piece of kit that will,
touch wood, have been in service without any outages for the whole of its
three-year lifecycle.

Peter.

---

From: Geoff Reed <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 20:28:01 2003

<Geek>

  Had a sparc IPC with almost 4 years of uptime, until the mainboard died :(

</Geek>

---

From: Paul Thompson <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 7 22:03:00 2003

A lightly loaded Redhat 7.1 Linux box which serves web pages to about four 
PC's 24x7 across a WAN.

The uptime actually tripped over due to the IRQ 0 counter overflowing back
to zero so it shows an uptime of 5 days currently.  But the real uptime is
shown in the idle time.

Ironically, this machine which is sitting under a reception desk with a
small UPS has better uptime than any in our data center because a rather
large capacitor in the main data center UPS blew spectacularly one day a
year or so ago and someone needlessly hit the big red button.

user  :   1d  2:22:06.67  20.2%  page in :121287652
nice  :   3d 23:59:02.20  73.6%  page out:147457401
system:   6d  2:30:33.81 112.4%  swap in :   249583
idle  : 491d  7:58:47.19 9044.7%  swap out:    77284
uptime:   5d 10:22:36.90         context :672899660

irq  0:  46935691 timer                 irq  6:       342                      
irq  1:   2654411 keyboard              irq  8:         2 rtc                  
irq  2:         0 cascade [4]           irq 11:1144326397 eth0                 
irq  3:         3                       irq 12:         6 PS/2 Mouse           
irq  4:    360577 serial                irq 14:  46172874 ide0                 

--