Subject: VCFe Munich report

From: Lawrence Wilkinson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:53:41 2003

I spent last weekend at the European Vintage Computer Fair
(www.vcfe.org) in Munich.  I didn't take anything along for display
myself, but spent the time looking at what the others had brought.

I guess my favourites were the CP/M portables, since I haven't played
with one for years.  Gaby Chaudry (www.gaby.de) had brought along a
Kaypro and an Osborne 1.  I'm not sure how we ever survived with the
tiny screen on the latter.

Other highlights: a nice display of disk drive head assemblies, from the
huge to the miniature; evolution of the Mac LC (I'm not into these, but
it was interesting); an IDE interface for the Z80 (if they ever do an
8080 version I'll take one); lots of old machines doing very impressive
things, showing that there is still effort going into to programming and
updating.

I suppose the thing which came home to me was how there was an explosion
of PC design in the late 70s/early 80s before things converged to the
IBM/Apple paths.

Tours were running to see the Cray-4 & Cyber 960 (www.cray-cyber.org)
and I went along for a look.  The temperature reminded me of when I had
my 360/30 running.  These machines are available for remote access, the
Cray runs 24 hours a day.

I paid a quick visit to Hans Franke's warehouse, I'm sure he has one of
everything hiding there somewhere.  I haven't seen a SC/MP evaluation
board for, well, decades.

Hans' presentation on storing vintage computer data as XML made me
realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved,
and then work out what to do with it.  I could store everything I've
ever written on an 8-bit computer in a corner of my existing hard drive
and not even notice it was there.  I've got to dig out all those KCS
cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get
them transferred.

Finally, I visited the Deutsches-Museum in Munich for a final fix of
computer stuff (www.deutsches-museum.de/e_index.htm).  They have a very
good display of calculating and computing machinery, from ancient
instruments through Zuse Z3, Univac, IBM360 up to a Cray 1.  I have a
soft spot for the 360/20, even if it's not quite as good as a /30.

Thanks to Hans for all his organisation, and to all the others that made
it such a good weekend.  I will be back next year, hopefully as an
exhibitor.

-- 
Lawrence Wilkinson                           [email-masked]
Ph +44(0)1869-811059                  http://www.formula1.demon.co.uk

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From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:21:35 2003

>tiny screen on the latter.

   FWIW, the Osborne CRT were surplus IBM 5100 CRTs! They were a major
reason that AO could build the Osbornes as cheap as he did.

     Joe

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri May 16 10:22:13 2003

> cassettes, ASR33 printouts and even a few bits of paper tape and get

I can assure you those paper tapes will still be readable long after your 
hard disk had headcrashed!. Why do people insist on transfering reliable 
storage media onto modern, unreliable stuff? It's the same with 
photographs and cine films -- people transfer them to CDs and DVDs. The 
originals have a much longer life...

-tony

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From: "Antonio Carlini" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:22:26 2003

> originals have a much longer life...

There are two reasons I do that sort of thing (although
not with photographs or film). Partly because my older
media is unreliable (floppies mostly) and partly because
once I have something in digital form (along with some
kind of MD5SUM or whatver) I can easily move forward
with new, denser storage media. So I can keep more
stuff within easy reach (less tecking to the attic, or
garage or storage).

Of course, I also keep the originals around, so there's
no harm done.

As for film, I believe that many of the early ones are
rotting away and there is a race on to try and transfer 
them to more stable media. So not *all* film is long-lived.

Just as the lowish quality paper used for the typical
handbook will become yellowed and brittle over the
years. 

Antonio
 
-- 

---------------
Antonio Carlini             [email-masked]

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From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:22:33 2003

--- Tony Duell <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > realise that the most important thing is to get everything preserved...
> 

> originals have a much longer life...

True, but I doubt that Hans or any of the rest of us are planning on
trashing the originals after they've been copied.

I have been (slowly) copying off old TU-58 carts with VMS 3.x and VMS 4.x
distros on them because, unlike paper tape, they _do_ degrade with age.
With the data backed up, I can feed the bits into a TU-58 emulator or
even into a real TU-58 drive to keep dependent machines (11/730, 11/750,
etc.) bootable.

I think the thing to remember is, just because you've transferred
something from original media to "modern" (for the moment) media, you
aren't off the hook forever.  Those same copies will have to be
copied to "modern" media at some point in the future.  Depending on
the original media in question, it might or might not be more sensible
to go back to the originals (if possible).

I have boxes of paper tape.  I have probably had one or two tear in
20+ years of using them (a floating point tape for the PDP-8 that
snagged in an ASR-33 comes to mind immediately).  At some point, I
plan to back all of it up to "modern" disk, but it's at the bottom
of the pile - TU-58s are at the top, followed by RK05 and RL02 packs,
then DECtape-I and, finally, the papertape - they are prioritized by
long-term stablity.

-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

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From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Fri May 16 10:23:14 2003

> trashing the originals after they've been copied.

Maybe not on this list, but I have seen it happen far too often 
elsewhere. People think the latest/greatest storage media must be more 
reliable that something that's rather more ancient... 

> distros on them because, unlike paper tape, they _do_ degrade with age.

Equally, there are old storage devices that do decay with age, sure...

> copied to "modern" media at some point in the future.  Depending on

I would never want to rely on this happening, simply because it won't 
always happen. People forget, or they assume tbat nobody will ever what 
'that old file'. And then it's lost for ever.

-tony

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From: "James E. LaBarre" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:23:40 2003

> originals have a much longer life...

A couple of reasons; one is to have a copy to use, so you don't wear out 
the original, and a backup in case the original gets damaged anyway. 
That's part of why I'm transferring my vinyl to ogg files.  I'm hardly 
going to be getting rid of the originals, but electronic copies mean I 
won't be wearing out unreplacable disks.