Subject: Re: Teletype

From: "Dwight K. Elvey" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 18:17:51 2003

>From: [email-masked]
>
>> >Maybe. Does the Model 33 work correctly when switched to 'local'? If not, 
>> >then you certainly have problems in the Teletype. If it does work in 
>> >'local' mode, then you might still have problems in the Teletype, but 
>> >problems with the interface are also possible.
>> 
>> Hi
>>  It is also possible that he has the wrong speed gears/motor.
>> A 60Hz motor will run in local with 50Hz connected but the
>> Baud rate to the outside will be wrong.
>
>That was one of the 'problems in the Teletype' that I was thinking of. I 
>suspsect the easiest kludge for this these days is to fiddle with the 
>clock at the computer interface end, and run the whole thing at 91.667 baud
>
>-tony
>

Hi
 One could buy a new pulley and add some additional capacitance
to the motors capacitor and it might work well at 50Hz. I don't
think I'd run it too long without the capacitor increase. They
run the motor hot at 60Hz. It'd be even hotter at 50.
Dwight

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:29:00 2003

>  One could buy a new pulley and add some additional capacitance

IIRC, the coupling between the motor and the rest of the mechnism 
consists of a pair of helically-cut gears on the end of the motor (one on 
the motor spindle, the other on a separate spindle). The driven gear is 
moulded integrally with a sprocket for a toothed belt that goes to a 
larger sprovket on the transmitter shaft.

The gears are almost certainly custom parts and would not be easy to get 
now (unless you know of a souce of Model 33 parts...). Making them would 
also be non-trivial, I think, at least in most home workshops.

> run the motor hot at 60Hz. It'd be even hotter at 50.

I thought that at least some of the Model 33 motors were used on both 50 
and 60 Hz, with just a gearing change. I know that UK Model 33s have 115V 
motors and an autotransformer in the stand -- if there was a 50Hz motor, 
I would have thought it would have been wound for 230V.

-tony

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:30:16 2003

Wouldn't it be so much easier to make a power inverter to run at 50 Hz 
and save all the time and expense of finding gears & etc. & etc.?? I 
have a power inverter that would be a simple cap change (two of them) to 
run 50 Hz. Output power is about 250 Watts now, maybe 175-200 at 50 Hz 
(or would it be more?)? How much power does a 33 take? Discuss...

-Bryan

>also be non-trivial, I think, at least in most home workshops.
<snip>

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:31:28 2003

> Wouldn't it be so much easier to make a power inverter to run at 50 Hz 

The problem is that many simple/cheap inverters have _horrible_ output 
waveforms. Induction motors (as used in the Model 33) don't like them, 
and actually, the inverters don't much like highly inductive loads...

> have a power inverter that would be a simple cap change (two of them) to 

I believe we actually want a 60Hz inverter here.

-tony

---

From: Bryan Blackburn <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:25:36 2003

The biggest problem is that induction motors draw three to four times 
the rated load on startup. Otherwise, a modified sinewave inverter would 
work fine. I have a 24 volt input, 120 v output, 60 Hz, continous 2500 
Watt modified sinewave, Trace inverter sitting on my bench if anyone is 
interested. It is rated to put out nearly 9000 Watts into an inductive 
load for 30 seconds, which is enough to start nearly anything, and has a 
built-in 50 Amp battery charger, voltmeter & etc. & etc...

-Bryan

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:27:42 2003

Seriously folks, I am going on a two week trip to sunny California later
this month and trying to find a couple of interesting stops that might
have something to do with classic computers. I'll be starting in San
Francisco and ending up in Los Angeles.

I plan a trip through Silicon Valley with a stop at NASA Ames. Anyone
have their schedule for the classic computer museum? Any other "must
see" places along the way? Does CHAC have a museum? Damn, just went to
the CHAC web site. Last updated in 11-12-1997?!? Now THAT is classic!! I
just gave um an earful
(politely).

Anyway, any suggestions that would bore my wife and daughter but make me
happy is welcome (hey, they get DisneyLand and Hollywood!)

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:28:12 2003

> happy is welcome (hey, they get DisneyLand and Hollywood!)
The tech museum, in San Jose is a must see, and your family might even enjoy 
it slightly, kids always did. 

There are a few computer salvage shops in the silicon valley, area if you have 
room in the car, there are a good way to kill a few hours of your time. 

You could always try and track down transmeta, corp. and see where linus 
torvalds works, but only if your a linux fan. and in the same genre, you 
could check out the silicon vallley Lug meeting and see if you get lucky 
Linus pops in to the meeting. which he has been known to do. 

Casa De Fruita, off highway 152 near gilroy, CA ... not computer related but 
cool over grown fruit stand... fun for the whole family 

And of course you have to drive through Gilroy for some major aroma therapy

Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since i 
moved to the mid-west. 

And to eat check out Chevy's mexican resturant... the kids love it because 
they have a machine that makes tortia automaticly... and they will out dough 
so the kids can play with so they stay quiet while adults enjoy a good meal 
("okay it's my favorite resturant") 

in Southern California, check out Bob's burgers, (anaheim, CA)  they have 
awesome Onion Rings and Fried Zuchini, and Pastrami Sandwitch. that 3 people 
could share and consider a good lunch, and cheap too.... 

Just a few thoughts...

James

---

From: "Dave Babcock" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:28:19 2003

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Eric Chomko" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 7:56 AM
Subject: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

> have their schedule for the classic computer museum?

The Computer History Museum (www.computerhistory.org) is no longer at NASA
Ames but closeby in Mountain View.  It now has a permanent home at 1401 N.
Shoreline Blvd.  (one freeway off-ramp north of NASA).  In fact the grand
opening of the new location was just this past week.

The tour schedule is currently:
        Wednesdays at 1pm
        Fridays at 1pm
        1st & 3rd Saturdays at 1pm and 2pm

It's best to let the museum know you're coming so that enough docents will
be scheduled for that day  (http://www.computerhistory.org/about/tour/).

I'd second the suggestion of stopping at Fry's Electronics and The Tech
[Museum of Innovation].

Intel also has a museum on their history.  Sorry I don't know the hours.

Finally, depending on how far south you're planning to travel, there's
another computer museum just north of San Diego - The Computer Museum of
America (www.computer-museum.org).

Enjoy your trip.

Dave Babcock
Volunteer, Computer History Museum

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:28:38 2003

Thanks for your tip about the CHAC.

Be sure to look here:
>> http://www.computerhistory.org/bldg/ <<
Says it Juuust Opened!

John A.

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:28:44 2003

> it slightly, kids always did.

The Tech Museum sounds like a good idea. Thanks.

> Linus pops in to the meeting. which he has been known to do.

I like Linux, but don't think I want to track down Linus Torvalds. :)

> And of course you have to drive through Gilroy for some major aroma therapy

Oh yes, Garlic World in Gilroy is a must stop for us. We have been
several times and plan to stop this time as well.

> Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since i

Where is Fry's computer store?

> they have a machine that makes tortia automaticly... and they will out dough

We have a Chevy's right here in Greenbelt, Maryland, complete with
tortilla machine in full view. But at some point I probably will be up
for a shot of tequila.

> ("okay it's my favorite resturant")

Nice plug. If you ever come to the DC area, the Chevys in Greenbelt, MD
near Goddard Space Flight Center (where I work) is a nice one.

> could share and consider a good lunch, and cheap too....

I'm going to JPL at least one day while in the LA area, and Pasadena is
close
to Anaheim, so I might make it to Bob's for lunch.

> Just a few thoughts...

James, thanks for the suggestions. It is exactly what I wanted when I
asked on this list.

Eric

---

From: Eric Chomko <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:28:50 2003

WOW!! The place looks fancier than any new government building I've seen
as of late!

Thanks for digging deeper into CHAC. I think I'll make that a stop as
well.
Heck, now all the sudden my idle itinerary is full!

---

From: steven <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:28:58 2003

Weird Stuff in Sunnyvale is an interesting stop.
http://www.weirdstuff.com/sunnyvale/html/sunnyvale.htm

--- Eric Chomko <[email-masked]> wrote:

> Any other "must
> see" places along the way?

---

From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:29:05 2003

On Sat, 7 Jun 2003, Eric Chomko wrote:

> WOW!! The place looks fancier than any new government building I've
> seen as of late!

Well, it's not a new government building.  That's the old Silicon
Graphics HQ building.  SGI sold it off to the CHM as part of their
attempts to stay afloat.  I hear the CHM folks got a great price for
it (dumpster diving on a grander scale).

-brian.

---

From: Thilo Schmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:29:14 2003

>>> http://www.computerhistory.org/bldg/ <<

Yes, Michael Williams (the head-curator) mentioned it this
Wednesday at Konrad-Zuse-Symposium in Karlsruhe, Germany.

Looks like they have some *really* interesting exhibits... 
... but obviously no working Z22, else he wouldn't have come
to Karlsruhe and miss the opening-party of his museum ;-)

bye
Thilo

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:29:47 2003

The CHM just opened this past Monday and now conducts tours of "visible
storage" on Wednesday afternoons and every other Saturday (First and
Third, I think).  I've got some pictures from the grand opening up on
Vintage-computer at http://www.vintage-computer.com/chmopenhouse.shtml. 

Fry's is to be avoided as is any organization that makes it's living
effectively stealing from the general public.  :)

The Weird Stuff Warehouse is always fun, especially the "as-is" area out
back.

The Tech museum in San Jose and the Metreon in San Francisco are worth a
visit.

Enjoy your trip!

   Erik Klein
   www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum
   The Vintage Computer Forum

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Eric Chomko
Sent: Saturday, June 07, 2003 7:56 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

---

From: jamesd <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:05:50 2003

snipped to save bandwidth

> > Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since
> > i moved to the mid-west.
>

www.frys.com

besure to check out local news papers... they usualy have 3 ad's per week at 
least they do in the Silicon Valley... you can find some pretty good bargains 
on new components... like ram and ide drives... 

 James

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:05:56 2003

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, jamesd wrote:

> > > Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly
> > > since i moved to the mid-west.
> >
> besure to check out local news papers... they usualy have 3 ad's per
> week at least they do in the Silicon Valley... you can find some pretty
> good bargains on new components... like ram and ide drives...

But...will it work in my VAX? ;P

-Toth

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:06:25 2003

Mail List wrote:

> Hello Jim,
>
> I didn't know you were having those kinds of problems there. When I was
> in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's there yet, so I 
> loved to stop
> into one every time I went on a training assignment up to the LA and Bay
> areas. With all the stuff they had there, I was like a kid in a candy 
> store.
>
> Best Regards
>
>
>
See Erics reply. My experiences are at the Wilsonville store in Oregon. 
Every time
I go there I swear I won't go back. But, Being a "JERK", I return every 
year or so
for the $19 CDR/W drives and $99 19" monitors. Feh!
Jim.

---

From: "Wayne M. Smith" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:06:30 2003

> Mail List wrote:
> 
> > Hello Jim,
> >
> > I didn't know you were having those kinds of problems there. When I 
> > was in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's 
> there yet, so I 
> > loved to stop into one every time I went on a training 
> assignment up 
> > to the LA and Bay areas. With all the stuff they had there, 
> I was like 
> > a kid in a candy store.
> >
> > Best Regards
> >
> >
> >
Fry's is definitely a mixed blessing.  A great store to buy that hard to
find connector or IC, but not necessarily to buy current PC stuff.  If
you are careful, you shouldn't have many problems.  I have made perhaps
150 purchases there and only had one problem with some SDRAM.  And so
what if they don't have the "legal" right to inspect your bag at the
door, if it deters shoplifting (a cost that all of us bear) then it's
worth the few seconds wait.

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:06:41 2003

> for the $19 CDR/W drives and $99 19" monitors

Holy cow, those seem like very low prices. Is the quality
of the products very good? I hope you don't have to get
another one every year because they only last for a year?

At 11:15 PM 6/7/03 -0700, you wrote:
>>in San Diego till mid 90's, we didn't have a Fry's there yet, so I loved 
>>to stop
>>areas. With all the stuff they had there, I was like a kid in a candy store.
>>
>>Best Regards
>>
>>

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:06:47 2003

Wayne M. Smith wrote:
<snip>
Unfortunatly, frys ( at least in oregon ) hasn't restocked their 
component inventory in quiite a while.
The component / test instrument section consists of 2 small isles of 
dusty, yellowing bags of dips,
leaded discretes and  obsolete, overpriced scopes and dmms. It appears 
that fry's original
component market has disappeared and been replaced with PC-centric junk 
and consumer toys.
:-(
Jim

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:06:53 2003

> another one every year because they only last for a year?
I'm reading this on a  philips 109S monitor I believe I paid $139 last 
year,  It will even work at
1900X1440 but I need reading glasses to see the well defined but timy 
font. I usually use it at 1280X1024.
I also purchased a pixi ( cheap ) monitor that I have used for over 2 
years with no problems, paid $99
both are 19", both at frys. The Oregonian sports back page has a full 
page every day, today,:
30 gig maxtor drive $29.95 (  30$ rebate ) 256 MB DDR2100 $19.99 ( 
rebate )128 Meg flash 29.99
CD/RW 35$. , flat  screen monitor, 19" .25 DP 1600X1200  149$
Jim

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:06:59 2003

> another one every year because they only last for a year?
I have had CDR/W drives survive less then a year, beware. And not only 
from frys
Worst screw? PC HEIDEN

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:07:05 2003

Hello Erik,

 > I'm not alone, by the way:

http://www.nonmundane.org/~dspisak/frys/frys.html
http://www.accesscom.com/~dave6592/
http://billzhouse.com/rants/frys.html
http://www.doofus.org/frys/
http://archive.salon.com/21st/feature/1998/05/cov_21feature2.html

I read a few of those pages.

As far a the fellow that didn't like not being able to return opened software.
If they didn't have that policy in place, there would be many instances of
people buying software, taking it home and copying it, and then attempting
to take it back for a refund. A certain percentage of bad apples abuse the
privilege, and the software industry had to do something about it. If he wants
to know if a program is any good before he bought it, he should read the
magazine reviews first. It's unfortunate that software selling stores don't 
have
a system set up in the stores with the software packages already loaded on
a test system where people could try it out there before buying. I thing 
Egghead
did something like that at one time.

As far a delays caused by wanting to pay by check, that happens at the grocery
store too. I just cringe when waiting in the checkout line and I see 
someone ahead
getting out their check book. If you want to get through the process 
faster, get a debit
card for your checking account. It really makes it so much easier. With the 
guy that
wrote that they didn't want to take his check because he had bounced a 
check a few
months earlier, no wonder. I wouldn't want to take a check from someone 
that bounced
checks either.

As far as having purchases examined before leaving, they do that here too
at CompUSA. The computer stores probably have a bad shoplifting problem.
Many cutting edge computer parts are significant value, small package items.
I just show them my bag and receipt, and move on.

As far as being out of stock on the advertised item. Happens at CompUSA
here too. It kind of sucks the way they do that, but I heard from the CompUSA
employee that when CompUSA would advertise a sale price on something
like a SIMM, they would only have a very limited number ( like six or seven
pieces in an area with a population in the million+ range ) of them at each 
store.
It's their "loss leader" ( is what I'd heard it called in the retail 
market), advertised
to get people into the store. There is a line that forms before opening 
time on the
day the ad flyer comes out in the newspaper. When I heard that, I just quit
bothering with it. It wasn't worth wasting the time, just to save a few bucks,
especially when it would usually be for naught unless you went through all that
extra hassle for it.

One thing I finally got completely fed up with is the rebate stuff. Last 
two things
I got from CompUSA, I sent in the rebate forms and copies of the receipt, and
they sent me back a card saying they were denying issuing the rebate because
they didn't get a copy of the sales receipt. Guess what, the rebate form was
stapled to the copy of the sales receipt. If they got the one, they most 
definitely
got the other. Then they have these 800 numbers to call that result in naught.
It's beginning to seem they're doing all that on purpose. Throw so many hurdles
in the way of getting the rebate, that many just give up and never receive 
them.
On the last two things I bought at CompUSA, I think there is still one rebate
check I didn't receive, but it's been so long, I'm not even sure about it 
anymore.
If they don't have instant rebates at the cash register anymore, they can 
take their
rebate and shove it. I'm surprised there aren't class action lawsuits and 
federal
investigation into the management of these rebate programs.

As far as hardware returns, there was a guy around here, who eventually worked
as a tech for some small clone shops, that would build or upgrade computers
for his family, neighbors, etc. I heard he plugged the power connector to a 
floppy
drive on backwards, burned out the drive's electronics, and then took it 
back to the
computer store where he got it, knowing it was his own fault for burning it 
up, just
telling them that it didn't work, to get another, instead of accepting 
responsibility
for his own actions. I heard of another guy pulling a board out of the 
computer while
it was powered up, damaging the motherboard. Selling computer parts to the
general public can be a problem. Warranties are for defects in material or 
workmanship,
and are not meant to cover failures caused by negligence or abuse. I even heard
of a person that would intentionally damage the heads in his VCR with a 
screwdriver
just before the warranty period was up, just so he could go get another 
unused unit.
These stores that sell computer parts to the general public have to deal 
with those kind
of problems every day.

Then, it happens often that a part that is reported bad, isn't really bad 
at all. Sometimes
it's user difficulties instead. And sometimes it's incompatibility issues. 
I had a Viking
modem one time that just would not work in one particular motherboard, but 
worked
perfectly in another motherboard, though other modems would work perfectly 
in that
first motherboard. I've seen many other instances of many pieces of 
hardware not working
when it would work perfectly under other circumstances.

I'm so glad I don't mess with computers for home users anymore.

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:07:17 2003

Hello Jim,

Although not in your case, all those things probably did happen, ie customers
breaking the parts, customers attempting to pull some kind of fraud, and way
too often. Looks like he had difficulty handling it. Now I see he is 
starting a new
business selling cables.

Around here there have been so many computers stores open up and end up
failing. They come and go like sand on the beach.

I'm so glad I don't have anything to do with PC's and home users anymore.

That "SOUP NAZI" thing is kind of humorous though.

http://www.pkmeco.com/seinfeld/nazi.htm

here's another humorous one ...

http://www.macopinion.com/columns/arena/060898.html

Best Regards

>Jim Davis wrote:
>Sorry, Getting totally OT here, PC HEIDENS was considered the "SOUP NAZI" 
>of the reseller
>world. Found their way to bankrupcy  last year.. Har Har. NO CHIPS FOR
>YOU! What Frys
>does for the socialist/1984 idea of retail, PC Heidens wildly redefined 
>the idea that the customer
>comes first. Never had a problem taking back stuff to frys ( not without a 
>day long wait in line  ).
>PC Heiden accused you of breaking it, if they took if back  would keep it 
>for months and then
>deny it was broken, and accuse you of fraud, cuss, never refund, bla bla 
>bla. Amazing.
>Jim

---

From: Jim Davis <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:07:48 2003

> I'm so glad I don't have anything to do with PC's and home users anymore.

The funny thing, they were 2 minutes from rohnler acres, Intel's biggest fab
and surrounded by uncounted design, fab and software co.s, I  wasn't aware
of the joint until a geezer engineer and I went to get some quick memory 
one day.
Still, a wouldn't do business with Pat Heiden.

---

From: James Rice <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:07:59 2003

We purchase about $50-60k a year from Fry's.  We can buy HP printers 
there cheaper than from Ingram Micro or Tech Data.  I usually never have 
a problem with Frys, but they are scared to screw with me.  We purchase 
everything by company check and  they no longer check with the bank.  I 
got my bluff in by screaming to the store director and even got through 
to Randy Fry once.  After I talked to Randy, I haven't had one incident 
of them not being very polite or giving me exactly what I want.  A new 
CSM tried to stop me buying more than the "limit one per customer" CD-R 
blanks last year and the supervisor told them to ignore the limit and 
give me what ever I needed.

That being said, I never buy anything that has been opened or even looks 
like it's been opened.  I never buy  ram or processors there or hard 
drives that are not in sealed factory packages.

James

> See Erics reply. My experiences are at the Wilsonville store in 
> Oregon. Every time
> I go there I swear I won't go back. But, Being a "JERK", I return 
> every year or so

-- 
http://webpages.charter.net/jrice54/classiccomp2.html

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:08:11 2003

On 2003.06.07 14:14 Thilo Schmidt wrote:

> this Wednesday at Konrad-Zuse-Symposium in Karlsruhe, Germany.
[...]
> Z22
Details?
-- 

tschüß,
           Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:08:25 2003

All that said you haven't convinced me that Fry's doesn't suck rocks.
Sure other stores have their problems and sure some stores have some of
Fry's policies but there is no place around that has the full compliment
of BS that Fry's provides, including reselling known-damaged returns (I
KNOW CompUSA, Best Buy and Circuit City, to name a few competitors,
won't do that)

Every one of the aforementioned stores has the same problems with the
bad apples on the consumer side, but none seems to have the contempt for
ALL of their customers based upon the inconsiderate or fraudulent few.

   Erik Klein

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Mail List
Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 1:24 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: RE: goin to CA soon, to be a CC tychoon

Hello Erik,

...

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:08:36 2003

Hello Jim,

My favorite place to get PC parts is "The Chip Merchant" in San  Diego.

http://www.thechipmerchant.com/

When I was in San Diego, I used to go there in person to get parts. They
are in the Kearny Mesa area of San Diego. After I moved back to the east
coast, I still mail ordered from them. I haven't gotten anything in at least a
couple of years now though. They always had the better grades of PC parts
available too.

Best Regards

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:08:42 2003

> it slightly, kids always did.

The TechMuseum is one of those places that you go away from feeling
cheated.  Go to the Exploratorium in SF instead.

> Linus pops in to the meeting. which he has been known to do.

Can you say "restraining order"? ;)

> cool over grown fruit stand... fun for the whole family

And Buffalo Burgers!  Yum!

> Of course there are always Fry's computer store, which i miss badly since i

Go to the one in Sunnyvale to see the Apple-1.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:08:50 2003

Hello Erik,

 > All that said you haven't convinced me that Fry's doesn't suck rocks.

I believe you. I haven't been to a Fry's in eight years now. We don't
have them here on the east coast. In that much time, things sure
could have gotten a whole lot worse there than I remember.

I really didn't like buying PC parts at Circuit City. I've just never tried
Best Buy yet. Not too thrilled with buying computer parts from Office Max
or Office Depot either. So I still have to pick up stuff from CompUSA,
clone shops, or mail order.

As I mentioned in a previous message, one of my favorite places for
PC parts is "The Chip Merchant" in San  Diego.

Best Regards

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:08:56 2003

On Sun, 8 Jun 2003, Mail List wrote:

> to stop into one every time I went on a training assignment up to the LA
> and Bay areas. With all the stuff they had there, I was like a kid in a
> candy store.

That's typical of new shoppers and out-of-towners.  Larry Anderson and I
once escorted a group of Finnish classic computer nerds to Fry's and it
was like Disneyland for them.  You don't actually realize just how lame
Fry's is unless you live here and have gone there several times.

--

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:09:03 2003

> worth the few seconds wait.

Maybe you don't mind the insinuation that you are guilty of something
until showing your receipt for someone to mark it with a highlighter
somehow magically admonishes you of any wrong-doing, but I do.

--

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:09:08 2003

> I read a few of those pages.
<...>

That's all fine and good but this is Fry's we're talking about.

--

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From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:09:20 2003

Hello Sellam,

 > You don't actually realize just how lame Fry's is unless you live here
 > and have gone there several times.

I'd generally have a chance to stop in there a few times a year for
several years in the early to mid 90's, but that was eight years ago.
In that much time, they may have gotten a whole lot worse than
I remembered.

Best Regards

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From: "Peter C. Wallace" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:09:33 2003

>    The Vintage Computer Forum

I alway figure an ~$100 add-on for the "Frys experience" Then see if
what they have is still a bargain, Usually keeps me away...

Peter Wallace

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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:09:44 2003

> > cool over grown fruit stand... fun for the whole family
Yes!  Its smelly, but its fun.  Well, the first time.. I have driven
that road (between Mtn Vw and Long Beach... 101->152->5->710) way too
often to even notice anymore :)

Case is fun, though.

> Go to the one in Sunnyvale to see the Apple-1.
Hmm.. although Fry's in Sunnyvale is spacey (well, the new one, the
one on Arques), its not as much "fun" as the one in Palo Alto is.

A large puter(-ish) store, in western style.. yee-haw! :)

--f

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From: Brian Chase <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:10:30 2003

> A large puter(-ish) store, in western style.. yee-haw! :)

Some background for people who don't live on the U.S. west coast or
in Arizona, apart from Fry's being a cheap electronics reseller of
notorious repute, many (all?) or their stores have "themes."

My favorite (and I use that term loosely) Fry's has to be the one in
Burbank, California on Hollywood Way near the airport.  It's store theme
is that of 1950-60s sci-fi movies.  Visible from the parking lot,
there's a flying saucer crashed into the side of the building.  Inside
there are a variety of aliens, giant ants, a monster octopus, and some
GIs in an old army jeep that's been sliced in half by an alien's ray gun
blast.  The other ones I've visited are the ancient Roman themed one
down around Fountain Valley in Orange County and the Tiki/island themed
one near LAX.  I visited the San Diego one years ago now, but I wasn't
paying attention to anything apart from the electronic gear.

I've only had one defective purchase experience there.  I bought three
external drive enclosures from them.  Two of the three enclosures had
defective (and very cheaply made) power supplies, so I ended up taking
them all back and getting a refund.  I've avoided the place for at least
three or four years now; basically since the late 1990s when the DIY PC
upgrades side of things became mainstream.

Aside from the sometimes interesting decor, I find being stuck in a
Fry's to be a nauseating experience.  You've got sales clerks
incessantly chasing you around, asking if they can help you.  At least I
think they're asking to help me; half the time it's hard to know what is
being said.  Then you've got various senior clerks at POS terminals over
near the hard drive, motherboard, and memory aisles.  They tend to
struggle with basic data entry.  Good luck trying to have them check to
see if a particular motherboard or drive is in stock.  And god help you
if you're a clueless customer who accepts "technical advice" from one of
them.  If you make it a rule to avoid the store sales staff at all
costs, you'll have better luck with your purchase.

Then, at least in more recent years, there are the masses of rude and
technologically inept customers, pushing their way about the store.
Sometimes a cluster of them will pause for a moment, and the "guru" in
the bunch will loudly yammer away in misinformed techno-babble to the
other members in the shopping party.  Their heads bob in acknowledgement
and awe of their computer genius friend.

Come to think of it, the experience of shopping at Fry's (or CompUSA,
Best Buy, Radio Shack, or Circuit City), as a modern /cultural/
experience is probably one of the single greatest reasons that I've
turned to classic computing as a hobby.  The mainstream PC and Windows
mindset is one of general incompetence; those who subscribe to it
effectively accept that their hardware and software fails all the time
because "that's how computers are."

Bleh.

-brian.

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From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:10:37 2003

> notorious repute, many (all?) or their stores have "themes."
Yup.  The old building of the Sunnyvale store (their first) was
a giant chip :)  The new one is kinda themeless, methinks.

> one near LAX.
Yeah, the Fountain Valley one is fun.. its just hard to find, hidden
away inbeween various semi-deserted commercial lots and old buildings...
took me a while to find it,  but was a nice drive down the 405, soo..

> incessantly chasing you around, asking if they can help you.
Look back at them in anger, works miracles. "DO NOT DISTURB me when I
am enjoying myself" seems to be what they get from that look ;)

> At least I
> being said.
Yeah, they're never selected on their english-speaking capabilities,
that's for sure.  I once complained, and I got "yeah, well, he's not
from here, he's a foreigner." "Well, duh, so am I, so deal with it."

> Bleh.
Yes, and I find it amusing to wander between, sipping my coffee :)

--f

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From: Thilo Schmidt <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 8 18:10:56 2003

Looks like my first answer got to Jochen directly instead
of to this list, so again:

>> this Wednesday at Konrad-Zuse-Symposium in Karlsruhe, Germany.
At the FH-Karlsruhe the last fully working Zuse Z22 is preserved.
http://pl.attitu.de/zuse/Welcome.html
(the homepage is quite old, but so is the Z22)
And there was an article about this Z22 in c't magazine 20/2002.

Last Wednesday the 4. Konrad-Zuse-Symposium was held there
with various interesting talks. The agenda is somewhere
on the net you should find it by googling for 
"Konrad Zuse Symposium". 

Most visitors left shortly after the talks (only 4 visitors plus
the 2 operators where left in the computer-room), so there was
plenty of time chatting with the operators and listening
to the Z22. :-)

Yes "listening", there is a speaker connected to the accumulator 
of the Z22, you can actually hear the computer compute.
 
They even demonstrated a "music program" for it written in the
sixties.

If you want to visit the Z22 try to contact Helmut Kammerer or
Hans Baumann. They are the operators since 1962 and probably know
everything about the machine...

bye
        Thilo

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From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 10 10:51:14 2003

> a giant chip :)  The new one is kinda themeless, methinks.

The one in Burbank is a movie theme with a spaceship smashed into the
front and lots of movie monster sculptures inside.

The San Diego one is kind of dull. It used to be an Incredible Universe
(if anyone remembers those), and they still use Incredible Universe delivery
trucks presumably because Fry's is too cheap to repaint them.

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
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