Subject: Reading various format 5.25" floppies on a PC

From: Jules Richardson<[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:44:40 2003

OK,  apologies first as this has been done to death at various times in the
past, and now I come to need the info I haven't got the willpower to piece it
together from archives of several thousand posts :-)

I'm trying to organise and back up all my data (primarily on my main PC system)
- but I'd also like to make images of the disks for some of my classic
platforms whilst I'm at it. I don't have any kind of fancy floppy controller,
just whatever comes in a standard PC (I do have PCs running Windows 2000,
Windows ME, Windows NT, Linux and DOS so I'm not too fussy about OS choice)

I have various 5.25" floppy drives lying around, although I *assume* the 1.2MB
drive will electrically read all of my 5.25" disks (whether the controller can
understand the raw data coming off the disks is another matter of course)

I've got disks for the following machines which I'd like to initially back up:

  Acorn BBC / BBC Master / Cambridge Workstation (I believe these are all the
same low-level format even if filesystem structure is different)

  DEC Rainbow (B model, if there's a difference between that and the A)

  Apple (Apple ][, //e and ///  - again I believe low-level structure is the
same for all 3?)

So, in an ideal world, what I'd like to be able to do is use some piece of
software on the PC and suck an entire image off each disk, archive it onto tape
/ CD / whatever, then at some point in the future be able to use the same
software on a PC to rebuild from those disk images such that they'll work in
the machine they were intended to.

I'm not even going to think about the Amiga and Mac 3.5" disks for now; I know
the PC controller won't handle those - and all the stuff on cassette tape can
wait too! :-)

(the couple of Macs I do have might be a better bet for this job, but
unfortunately none of them are networked and so I couldn't get the data off
them to a place where I can store it easily)

cheers

Jules

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---

From: "Gary Dean Hildebrand" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:44:59 2003

I think there is some sort of program that actually copies floppy disks 
verbatum, right down to the bit patterns encountered, a true mirror image. 

I know the Amiga software can be archived to CD-ROM, then manipulated by any 
PC that handles the ROM filesystem.  Still, with the GCC encoding of Apple 
and Commodore disks, you might have a problem. 

Basic language programs can be easily saved as a text file, but ML might be 
a trick getting back onto a readable disk without a native CPU/System doing 
the work. 

Good luck, 

Gary Hildebrand
St. Joseph, MO

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:45:20 2003

> same low-level format even if filesystem structure is different)

Original BBC micros used a 8271 disk controller chip which is 
single-density (FM) only. Many PC disk controllers can't handle that. 
Later, Acorn used the 1770 (which can do double desinty (MFM) _as well_), 
but still used single density recording as the standard.

>   DEC Rainbow (B model, if there's a difference between that and the A)

That one is possible, there are shareware MS-DOS programs for this 
(probably different for Rainbow CP/M and MS-DOS disks). The Rainbow disks 
(RX50 drive) are are 80 cylinder single sided, so you need a 1.2M drive.

>   Apple (Apple ][, //e and ///  - again I believe low-level structure is the

Apple used GCR encoding on these machines, which can't be handled by 
_any_ standard PC disk controller. 

-tony

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:48:16 2003

Always start by being clear about whether you want to 
duplicate a diskette of the other ("alien") format
read/write an image of the alien diskette
read/write files from the alien diskette
Use files from one program in another program

> verbatum, right down to the bit patterns encountered, a true mirror image. 

Teledisk may be what you want (No longer available?).  But it will NOT
read Amiga, Apple, Northstar, single density, 128 byte sectors, etc.

ON A PC, using the PC hardware, a PC CAN NOT READ ANYTHING other than
"Western Digital" style MFM sectors on a PC, using PC hardware,
disunirregardless of what software you try.
But,... if you are willing to CHANGE the PC hardware AND write
software to accompany the changed hardware,... then anything is
possible.

> I know the Amiga software can be archived to CD-ROM, then manipulated by any 
IFF you write the CD on the Amiga.
The PC hardware can not read Amiga diskettes, which are MFM, but do NOT
have the type of sector headers that the PC hardware needs..  That, of
course, is not strictly true.  There was one fellow who claimed that by
interrupting it in mid read, that the PC could be tricked into reading
Amiga!  But AFAIK, he never got it to work reliably.  Kinda like when
Gallagher makes French fries using his sledge-o-matic - "I swear, you
gotta hit that sucker just right."

> and Commodore disks, you might have a problem. 

Yes.  The PC hardware CAN NOT handle GCR.  The PC hardware can ONLY handle
MFM sectors with "Western Digital Style" sector headers.

> a trick getting back onto a readable disk without a native CPU/System doing 
File content is irrelevant!
Files is files.  All that you are after is the right sequence of bytes.
IT DOESN'T MATTER what the content is of the file.

OTOH, if you want to move a file from one disk format to another, then you
need software that not only reads the sectors/tracks of the 
"alien" diskette, but also implements enough of its file system to be able
to parse the directory and understand it well enough to find the right
sectors for the file that you want.
That will give you an exact byte for byte copy of the file.

The CONTENT of the file is another problem.  Text files are no
problem.  But, many versions of BASIC "tokenize" the program for storage
(replace every "keyword" with an abbreviation), and the tokens are not
even the same from one version to another.  But, as you said, you can
override that and save it as text.  For example, if you want to move a
program from MICROS~1 BASIC version 4.51 on a CP/M machine to MICROS~1
BASIC version 5.0 on the SAME machine, you need to load the 0program into
4.51, save it as text, and load THAT into the new one.
If you DO succeed in getting a VisiCalc spreadsheet from an Apple disk
onto a PC disk, it will load just fine into the IBM PC version of
VisiCalc.  But do you think that the current version of EXCESS^H^HEL will
handle it?  If you copy a Wordstar file from a CP/M diskette to a PC, it
will load into the PC version of Wordstar; but will the _current_ version
of MICROS~1 WEIRD read files from the PC version of Wordstar?

"I can build a radio that receives broadcasts from France.  It will get
all of the sounds EXACTLY right.  But it doesn't TRANSLATE!"

There have been some programs for altering the content of a file for
transferring documents from one brand of word processor to another.

There have been some programs for transferring files from various MFM
diskettes to and from PC, including:
22DISK
Flagstaff (No longer available)
Hypercross (TRS-80 only) (No longer available)
Media Master (No longer available)
Oswego Systems (HP only) (No longer available)
Uniform (No longer available)
XenoCopy-PC (Available only by personally contacting the author)

Each handles a fixed finite group of formats. Most have provision for
adding in additional formats yourself, but almost nobody ever succeeds in
doing so, and after fielding too many "which numbers do I put in to make
my PC read Apple diskettes" the authors of the programs stop providing
tech support and HIDE that feature (in XenoCopy, try holding down
Alt and/or Ctrl when pressing the function keys, try format #0, etc.)

The Amiga has significantly more versatile hardware than the PC.
Central Coast Software made some stuff running on the Amiga for handling a
lot of formats (No longer available)

On the PC, it is possible to CHANGE the hardware into something more
capable, usually by installing another circuit board between the disk
controller and the floppy drive.
Apple Turnover (changed to "Turnover" at Apple's "request") (comes with
software for Apple ][ DOS, PRODOS, Apple ][ CP/M, Apple ][ Pascal,
etc) (No longer available)
Central Point Option Board (get the "Deluxe") (has software for Mac 400K,
800K) (No longer available)
Catweasel (there has been MUCH confusion between what it "CAN DO" (when
somebody writes software) v what it "WILL DO"))  Tim Mann is the real
expert on it, has written great stuff for it, and knows which
software exits   (it IS available!)

--
Fred Cisin                      [email-masked]
XenoSoft                        http://www.xenosoft.com

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:49:31 2003

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, [iso-8859-1] Jules Richardson wrote:
> . . .

The PC controller won't handle those either.

> (the couple of Macs I do have might be a better bet for this job, but

No, it is a lot easier to modify the disk controller hardware on a PC than
on a Mac.

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:49:41 2003

> The PC controller won't handle those either.

Except you use a Turnover in a real PC/XT.

> No, it is a lot easier to modify the disk controller hardware on a PC than

Depends.

Gruss
H.

--
VCF Europa 5.0 am 01./02. Mai 2004 in Muenchen
http://www.vcfe.org/

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:49:52 2003

> Except you use a Turnover in a real PC/XT.

The PC controller won't handle them.
Additonal hardware (Turnover, Option, Catweasel) will.
I won't go into my opinion of the reliability of the Turnover. (Nor the
mediocre software)

> > No, it is a lot easier to modify the disk controller hardware on a PC than

Turnover and Option board are ISA.
Can the PCI version of the Catweasel be used in a Mac?
Is there any comparable unit available for the Mac to read diskettes at a
flux transition level?

The PC hardware is so crude and simple that even with MY soldering skills,
it is possible to do mods such as for single density.  The Mac hardware is
much more integrated, and is full of surface mout chips, etc. that I'm not
skilled enough to work with.

---

From: Kevin Handy <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:50:03 2003

>read Amiga, Apple, Northstar, single density, 128 byte sectors, etc.
As far as I can tell, teledisk stores the images in a "compressed" form
which is only known to teledisk. It is not useable to any of the emulators
I know about.  If there is a way to convert such a file into to a raw 
image,
I'd really like to know about it.

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:50:14 2003

> I'd really like to know about it.

Will Kranz [[email-masked]] did a fair deal
of work on decoding that format.  He got many things
to actually unpack to a usable (raw image) format.

--fred

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:50:24 2003

> I won't go into my opinion of the reliability of the Turnover. (Nor the

:)) We had this already. I was satisfied when I got my hands on
a turnover, back when the A2 was still my main machine and I had
to do some (turbo Pascal) programming for clients using IBM-PCs.

> Is there any comparable unit available for the Mac to read diskettes at a

I was rather thinking about either using a 3 1/2 drive on an A2
to write GSOS disks (readable with older Macs), or better, using
an LC with the IIe card, and a 5 1/4 drive connected. From there
on it's a childs play to copy any A2/3 disk to the Mac side, and
from there onto the net or at least PC 3 1/2s.

> skilled enough to work with.

only the newer ones. I don't know if he said anything about new
Macs. And, beside that, actual PCs are as 'solderning friendly'
as any Mac.

Gruss
H.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:54:38 2003

> read/write an image of the alien diskette

In general, if a PC (say) is capable of duplicating a disk, then it's 
also capablie of recoridng and rewriting a disk image (this just involves 
saving the data that would have been transfered from the source to 
destination disks in a normal PC file of some suitable format). So this 
is a simple-ish matter of programming

> read/write files from the alien diskette

This, again, can be done in software if the disk is physically readable, 
but it involves and understanding of the filesystem involved...

> Use files from one program in another program

Again software, but geting documentation on application files can be 
'interesting'...

> "Western Digital" style MFM sectors on a PC, using PC hardware,

Even then you might have problems. There is an index timing problem that 
means the Intel disk controllers can't read some disks formatted by real 
Western Digital chips (if the first sector header starts too soon after 
the index pulse, the Intel controller won't see it). Some clone disk 
controllers mighy have got this right, some certainly haven't!

> even the same from one version to another.  But, as you said, you can

They're not even the same on related machines. The UK Dragon and the 
TRS-80 CoCo are much the same machine (essentially the same hardware, 
microsoft BASIC in ROM), but the tokens are assigned in a different 
order. You can load a BASIC progeam saved in ASCII on either machine, 
but not one stored in the (default) tokenised format.

> doing so, and after fielding too many "which numbers do I put in to make

I have mananged to add a new CP/M format (FTS-88 double density 8") to 
22disk, I think.

Is it _possible_ to add formats to Hypercross? I have the original disks 
and manaals for the Model 4 version, and it doesn't say it is. If it is, 
what's the trick?

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:54:49 2003

> skilled enough to work with.

Depends on the PC and the Mac :-). Modern PCs seem to be stuffed full of 
SMD (and worse still BGA) chips. The disk controller is probably part of 
some large ASIC on the motherboard.

Conversetly, the Mac+ has no SMD chips other than in the floppy drive AFAIK.

-tony

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:54:59 2003

> to do some (turbo Pascal) programming for clients using IBM-PCs.

For obvious reasons (check the copyright on the title page!), I'm not very
impressed with the Turnover.  It was NOT my finest work.

> from there onto the net or at least PC 3 1/2s.

The problem is/was more than just Apple ][.  There are a LOT of other
formats that can be done with PC hardware, and there are c9ommercially
availabel hardware mods for many others.

> Macs. And, beside that, actual PCs are as 'solderning friendly'

Which Macs have the floppy disk controller on a separate/replaceable
board?

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:55:10 2003

> is a simple-ish matter of programming
And without that simple-ish matter of programming, you end up wasting way
too much of your time fielding tech support questions from those who don't
have the software.
Without the additional software, they turn into completely different
tasks.

> Again software, but geting documentation on application files can be 

Yes, the difference IS software.  I'm sure that I'm not the only person to
be stuck with tech support for users who do not have the system software
that they need.

> Even then you might have problems. There is an index timing problem that 

The statement that you "CAN NOT READ ANYTHING other than" is not
invalidated by the existence of ADDITIONAL problems.

> controllers mighy have got this right, some certainly haven't!

In addition, there are some other minor complications, such as additonal
code needed to read 128 byte sectors, disks (such as Kaypro DS) that have
invalid content in sector headers, etc.

> I have mananged to add a new CP/M format (FTS-88 double density 8") to 

It CAN be done.  I had already assumed that Tony dould do it.  _Most_ end
users of such programs do not have ("almost nobody") the knowledge needed
to do so.  And when that option wasn't hidden in XenoCopy, we got
constant phone calls demanding help in using that feature to add formats
that we had already told people were IMPOSSIBLE with their hardware.  
("which numbers do I put in to do Apple?")  What was worse, was that in
the few cases where people WERE successful, they wouldn't give us the
specs (nor sample disk) to be able to add the format to the program
for other people.  We had no interest in helping people add a format that
they wouldn't share. The capability stayed in, but became "undocumented".

> and manaals for the Model 4 version, and it doesn't say it is. If it is, 

Probably not. ("_Most_ have provision")  I haven't heard from Mike Gingel 
in almost ten years; is anybody still in touch with him?

In some programs that don't have deliberate provision for adding formats,
it may still be possible to decipher the data storage and step on the
numbers in the file to change a format to something else.

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:55:21 2003

> And without that simple-ish matter of programming, you end up wasting way

Absolutley. FWIW, I _have_ written software related to this -- the 'LIF 
Utilities for Linux'. This is an on-going project (so don't moan that the 
feature you need isn't there, and it's GPLed. It's designed to handle the 
HP9114 disks only, so as to transfer programs and data between older HP 
handheld calculators and linux PCs.

I didn't write a program to directly copy a disk (for one thing, my PC 
only has 1 3.5" floppy drive) -- I wrote programs to transfer between a 
physical disk and an image file in both directions. That seemed to cover 
it (just put the image file in /tmp if you don't need to keep it :-))

> invalidated by the existence of ADDITIONAL problems.

Of course. I was just pointing out that you might still have problems, 
and that a PC can't read all disks with 'western digital headers'. In 
particular, I couldn't read disks formatted on my TRS-80 Model 4 on this 
PC. I could format a disk on the PC with the same type of format and then 
read/write it correctly on both machines. 

> invalid content in sector headers, etc.

Oh, indeed. Linux makes this a little easier (at least in the (old) 
version I'm using) in that there's an ioctl() call that allows you to do 
just about anything the hardware is capable of (some of the parameters 
set up the DMA controller to transfer the appropriate number of bytes, 
and the _system_ takes care of allocating a buffer not crossing a page 
boundary, etc, other paramemeters are sent to the disk controller chip 
without modification). I have had to do it under MS-DOS (the PERQdisk 
program), which was 'interesting' -- just about every other comment 
relates to some misfeature of the PC :-)

> It CAN be done.  I had already assumed that Tony dould do it.  _Most_ end

Why me? I am not a programmer. In fact I doubt I'm a hacker [1] either.

[1] In the original sense. I am certainly not a cracker.

> Probably not. ("_Most_ have provision")  I haven't heard from Mike Gingel 

Sure, I understand 'most' :-). I was just asking because I have that 
program, and if it is possible to add more formats I'd like to be able to 
do it. If not, never mind.

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:55:33 2003

> Which Macs have the floppy disk controller on a separate/replaceable

Well, actually, any Mac with expansion slots can take an FDC card. I have 
one of the Apple manuals on designing peripheral cards for macs, and the 
example is an MFM-compatible floppy controller (!).

Apart from that, what's the problem with soldering on the mainboard? Some 
of us do it all the time. And don't most modern PCs have the disk 
controller on the motherboard now? I've certainly seen PC motherboards 
with a 34 pin header for the floppy drives.

-tony

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:55:43 2003

On Mon, 16 Jun 2003, Tony Duell wrote:
> Depends on the PC and the Mac :-). 

It sure does.  Comparing NEW PCs with OLD Macs is ludicrous. And it also
is an issue of how competent the individual is.  I do NOT have the skill
to solder surface mount, nor to figure out how to modify the disk
operations of the Mac.

By the time that the Mac originally came out (1984?), I had had the
schematics and source code of the BIOS of the PC for several years (1981).  
And by that time (1984), I had several extra FDC boards for the PC that I
experimented with, including doing 8", and had already implemented more
than 100 5.25" MFM formats in XenoCopy.

I don't doubt that the Mac was a superb platform for hacking for SOME
people.  For me, with MY limitations of ability, the PC (OF COMPARABLE
VINTAGE) was a lot more open and easier to work with.

> Modern PCs seem to be stuffed full of 

The PC AT THE TIME OF THE Mac+ ALSO had no SMD.  They both became less
solder friendly at the same time.  But the Mac, from the beginning, was
better integrated than the comparable vintage PC, which made the PC easier
for ME.  For ME, the PC and the Apple ][ were comparable to work on, and
the Mac was closed to me.  But for somebody else, or with different
hacking goals, it could be completely different.

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:56:06 2003

On Tue, 17 Jun 2003, Tony Duell wrote:
> Well, actually, any Mac with expansion slots can take an FDC card. I
> have one of the Apple manuals on designing peripheral cards for macs,
> and the example is an MFM-compatible floppy controller (!).

OK, 
You talked me into getting a "new" Mac!
When did they start having expansion slots?
That manual sounds VERY interesting.  At your convenience could you look
up the exact title, etc. so that I can start looking for one?

When I was dealing with Macs, Apple was NOT enthusiastic about third party
hardware!

I am not very in touch with "current" computer systems.

> Apart from that, what's the problem with soldering on the mainboard? 
My lack of skill.  Did I mention that my first few attempts at PC mods
were less than successful?

> Some 

That is a LOT less fun than a separate board for each function.
Do most people consider the Mac more fun than the ][  ?

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:56:17 2003

--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> It sure does.  Comparing NEW PCs with OLD Macs is ludicrous.

Indeed - and it cuts both ways ;-)

> And it also is an issue of how competent the individual is.  I do NOT
> have the skill to solder surface mount, nor to figure out how to modify
> the disk operations of the Mac. 

Those are two different skills.  Soldering surface mount is a matter
of vision, manual dexterity and practice.  The correct tools help, but
I can prove that you can do a lot with just a temp-controlled iron
and a steady hand.

Modifying the Mac disk controller is an entirely different kettle of
fish - like the Amiga, unlike old ISA PCs, it's a custom affair.  The
oldest Macs use the "IWM" chip the Integrated Woz Machine.  Single-
sided Mac drives varied the drive speed to achieve several recording
densities; later ones varied the bit clock under software control
(similar to what the Commodore 2040/3040/1541/2031/etc. drives did).
Between that and GCR vs MFM, there are major obstacles for getting
different platforms to read each other's disks.  The one that is the
most universal is the Amiga - it uses part of the sound chip for a
4096-bit shift register to clock an entire track in or out.  The
hardware handles flux reversals - the *software* cobbles up the
MFM formatting, intersector gap, headers, data and all.  In practice,
the graphics chips perform the binary<->MFM translation, but that's
just because it can - it's doable purely in software, albeit more
slowly.  The biggest problem with Amiga FDC design is that it's limited
to DD data rates - its high-density floppies spin at 50% and are
somewhat scarce (AFAIK, the drive itself senses the HD hole and spins
the disc at the right rate; it's not a software thing).

Unless you start from scratch, I doubt there's any one platform that
has a chance of reading "all" floppy formats - that's why they made
the Catweasel.  It's a shame that the software never lived up to the
promise of the hardware.

-ethan

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:56:28 2003

> handheld calculators and linux PCs.

As you've seen, it is a lot easier, and MUCH more fun, to write such
software than it is to deal with a lawyer who wants to open his water
damaged Northstar Wordstar files in Windoze Word, can't understand why HE
should have to do more than one step, and also wants to know if he can
return the software for a refund once he has finished his conversion
project.

> it (just put the image file in /tmp if you don't need to keep it :-))

A very reasonable approach.  It handles archiving, copying, and with some
software to parse the image, could handle data conversion.

> read/write it correctly on both machines. 

Can you read them if you block the index signal?

> [1] In the original sense. I am certainly not a cracker.
because
1) you are a hacker
2) you understand the hardware that it needs to deal with
3) you're willing to put the effort into experimenting

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:56:39 2003

> When did they start having expansion slots?

The MacSE was the first to have an expansion slot that I know of.  I
have a graphics card and a couple of 10Base2 network cards (one from
Asante, IIRC; one from Novell).  It's called a "PDS" slot ("P"rocessor
"D"irect "S"lot) - completely custom to whatever particular Mac
it's in (with a few exceptions, like the MacIIsi and MacSE/30 sharing
a slot and backplate design).  *Standard* slots didn't come along
until the MacII line - those are called "NuBus".  Those phased out
in the PowerPC days and have been supplanted with PCI slots in modern
PPC Macs (for those models that have slots at all).

The Mac approach is something like the Amiga approach - give little
boxes a proprietary processor-specific slot (Amiga 1000, Amiga 500,
Amiga 1200), and give the high-ticket boxes something standard
(Amiga 2000, Amiga 3000, Amiga 4000...)  The difference is that you
can electrically fit an Amiga 1000 peripheral on an Amiga 500, but
not a MacSE card into even something as close to an SE/30 (68000
vs 68030, so incompatible PDS slots).  There are several flavors of
Mac PDS slots, but one flavor of NuBus and PCI, AFAIK.

> When I was dealing with Macs, Apple was NOT enthusiastic about third
> party hardware!

I doubt they have ever been more than tolerant.  There are a number
of well-known 3rd-party peripheral makers, and a couple of former
clone makers (Jobs hated the idea of people cutting in to his hardware
business, but he wasn't always in charge).

Asante, Novell and Radius are the ones that come to mind immediately,
but there are others.

> I am not very in touch with "current" computer systems.

There are probably three or four major types of Macs: enclosed models
with mono screens (128K, 512K, Plus, SE, SE/30...), low-end slab-style
desktops (MacLC-II, MacLC-III...), higher-end desktop and small server
models with 68020 or better, and Nubus slots (MacII, IIci, IIsi, IIvx,
IIfx, Quadra 700, Quadra 800, Quadra 950...), early PowerPC boxes with
NuBus slots and frequently AV hardware (PowerMac 6100, 6200, 7100,
8100...) and "modern" PowerPC designs (iMac, G3, G4...)

There are dozens of models that I have not mentioned, but they more-or-
less resemble one of the ones that I have mentioned.

> were less than successful?

Well... as I said in another message, that's a different issue that can
be frequently be addressed with a bit of practice (or delegation ;-)
Just this week, I was modding a spare SPARC5 (removing the upper SCA
connector so I could fit a 1.6" drive inside the main case).  I used
a combination of a soldering iron, solder sucker, and heat gun.

> > Some of us do it all the time.

Indeed, but I've modded more Amigas than PCs... mostly it's not worth
the hassle, in my experience, but there are times with less common
hardware that you don't have many alternatives (like the time I
installed a removable battery on a Mostek NVRAM from a SPARC1/1+/2.
I should take pictures of it.  It still works.

> > And don't most modern PCs have the disk 

For a long time now.  Many modern PCs don't even have ISA slots any
more - my high-end desktop machine has a 3-year-old motherboard in
it with 5 PCI slots, and no ISA (Asus A7V).  I still keep an old
P-233 box around as well as a 486DX-2/66 for more down-to-earth hardware
hacking.  I tend to leave the top end as-is (until it's not so top-end
anymore ;-)

> Do most people consider the Mac more fun than the ][  ?

Fun in what sense?  To mod the hardware?  Probably not.  To attach to
a modern network and run a TCP/IP stack?  Almost certainly.  Starting
with the Plus, most Macs come with SCSI (there are a very few exceptions);
many come with network ports or are easy to refit with either LocalTalk
or Ethernet.  Most ][s were not so equipped, but for enough money,
they could be so enhanced.

-ethan

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:56:50 2003

> less resemble one of the ones that I have mentioned.

The "beige PCI Power Macs" occupy the middle ground between the modern
New World Power Mac and the last of the NuBus Power Macs. These include
systems such as the 4400, 63-6400, 72-73-75-7600, 82-85-8600 and 95-9600
models. The original beige G3 is sort of an oddball, neither fish nor
fowl based on its internals. Alas, all of these are not yet on-topic, sigh.
:-P

The NetBSD/macppc models page has some interesting information on the
differences between the major Power Macs.

	http://www.netbsd.org/Ports/macppc/models.html

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- The first duty of a revolutionary is to get away with it. -- Abbie Hoffman -

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:57:11 2003

> You talked me into getting a "new" Mac!

Watch out, I think some of the newer macs may be lacking slots again :-(

> When did they start having expansion slots?

The Mac II has Nubus slots (well, close to Nubus -- Apple had to change a 
few things because they're Apple...) and the SE has the PDS (Processor 
Direct Slot, basically the 68k bus)

> up the exact title, etc. so that I can start looking for one?

Sure...

> I am not very in touch with "current" computer systems.

Nor am I, but the Macs I mentions are actually on-topic for this list...

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Tue Jun 17 09:57:23 2003

> software than it is to deal with a lawyer who wants to open his water

Oh, indeed. Fortunately I don't have to support people like that.... I 
just have to suppor my own crazy idesa

> software to parse the image, could handle data conversion.

YEs, I also wrote programs to produce a directory listing (either of an 
image file or a physical disk), to extract a file from an image or 
physical disk (the reverse -- to put a new file onto an image/disk is 
something I must do soon) and to translate some of the HP files into more 
normal ones (like LIF1 text files into normal text files).

> Can you read them if you block the index signal?

I think so, but I found it easier just to format the disk on the PC...

> > [1] In the original sense. I am certainly not a cracker.

AHving read some ofEric Raymond's (I think) pages I am convinced I am not...

> 2) you understand the hardware that it needs to deal with

True. I also have a fair idea of how a CP/M directory is put together, 
what the various options in the 22disk program mean, etc.

> 3) you're willing to put the effort into experimenting

It's often the only way...

-tony

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:06:00 2003

> PPC Macs (for those models that have slots at all).

In my opinion the LC 475 and Performa 630 are the best coices for
a classic (68k) Mac. Both hafe the 32 Bit PDS slot, where you may
find network cards or even video cards. Beside that you may with
low effort design your own cards, since the PDS is nothing else
than a 68k bus, ment for machine specific add ons.

> boxes a proprietary processor-specific slot

Now, let's get setious, isn't the ISA bus exactly the same?
A Processor specific bus for an 8088 system (and an extension
to 16 Bit for the AT) ?

As a real difference, Apple adopted a CPU independant standard
by using the Nubus for their slot Macs (and PCI today).

> (Amiga 1000, Amiga 500,

Basicly you'll have a 16 Bit and a 32 Bit PDS Version. Way
like the XT/AT thing for PCs.

Gruss
H.

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:06:50 2003

> than a 68k bus, ment for machine specific add ons.

My personal favorite is the SE/30, but I like the compact Mac
format and the built-in monitor.  If you need color, then I'd
agree about the two models you mentioned.
 
> A Processor specific bus for an 8088 system (and an extension

Well... it certainly was for the PC, XT and AT.  By the time the
CPUs went to a 32-bit data bus, the ISA bus was, in effect, emulated.

> like the XT/AT thing for PCs.

I'll admit to that being basically true, but when you are trying to
fit card "A" into Mac "B", how many varieties of PDS slot are there?

I don't know the exact answer, but I have handled at least three
kinds of cards (SE (16-bit), SE/30+IIsi (32-bit) and LC (32-bit).

-ethan

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:07:36 2003

> than a 68k bus, ment for machine specific add ons.

No offense, Hans, but I *HATE* the 630. :-P The case alone drives me up the
wall, and it's an IDE oddball (since I like classic Macs, I have tons of
SCSI drives in stock, but I rarely stock small-capacity IDE drives).

I do like the LC 475, but unless you have a real '040 installed (granted these
are not hard to find at decent prices), things like NetBSD might break or
give you much additional unnecessary grief. Ditto again for the (gag) 630.

My favourite all-around classic Mac is the venerable IIci. Three NuBus slots,
eight 30-pin SIMM slots (I have 128MB in my NetBSD IIci :-), runs MacOS,
Linux/68k and NetBSD/mac68k like a champ, dirt cheap, extremely easy to find,
cheap, easy to repair (power supply pops out too), stacks well, cleans up
nice, and very cheap.

Plus, you can find lots of accelerators and cards for them. My A/UX IIci has
a 8*24*GC and a Daystar 50MHz '030 + FPU in it (enough to play DOOM!).

Did I mention they were cheap?

-- 
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- Tell the truth, and run. -- Yugoslav proverb -------------------------------

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:07:48 2003

> kinds of cards (SE (16-bit), SE/30+IIsi (32-bit) and LC (32-bit).

Add the IIci (32-bit) and the 61-71-8100 (32-bit). Isn't there a 16-bit LC
PDS as well?

-- 
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- Research is what I'm doing when I don't know what I'm doing. -- W. von Braun

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:08:00 2003

> agree about the two models you mentioned.

I like the LC 475 for it's compactness while still having a
powerful 040, and the 630 for it's extensibility. 56 MB of
RAM in a 68k Mac is just to good to be true. CD Drive build
in and a 33 MHz 040 is everything you'll ever need - not to
mention the usage of IDE drives which allow the usage of
cheap large drives. And if the 486DX2 card is installed,
you get the best of both worlds (and a total RAM of 120 MB:)

> CPUs went to a 32-bit data bus, the ISA bus was, in effect, emulated.

Still, it's a bus designed for a specific proprietary hardware.
How it's handled doesn't matter - there have been quite some
adoptions to other processors (aka emulations).

> kinds of cards (SE (16-bit), SE/30+IIsi (32-bit) and LC (32-bit).

LC is available in a 16 Bit flavour (LC,LC II, LC III) and 32 Bit
one (LC 475, Performa 630 etc.). 

Gruss
H.

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:08:12 2003

> SCSI drives in stock, but I rarely stock small-capacity IDE drives).

Now, exactly the IDE is a good thing. I come across IDE drives all
the time. Sure, I had the same opinion before. A real Mac has to
use a real drive :) And as I said already, the huge RAM for a desk
top Mac is a definite plus, which also goes for the CD Drive, the
Slot for the 486 Card (which also offers a lot of ways to hack it),
and the posibility to have several (specific) extensions - including
graphic cards without occupieing the PDS Slot.

> give you much additional unnecessary grief. Ditto again for the (gag) 630.

Now, why having a Mac and then installing some Unix?

Servus
Hans

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:09:12 2003

> > I do like the LC 475, but unless you have a real '040 installed (granted
> > these are not hard to find at decent prices), things like NetBSD might
> > break or give you much additional unnecessary grief. Ditto again for the
> > (gag) 630.

> Now, why having a Mac and then installing some Unix?

As collectables, no good reason. They're better off running MacOS in that case
:-)

But I have so many Macs in stock that I want to put them to good use, and
my IIci makes a dandy DNS, AppleShare and print server. It was running
continuously for over 190 days after I got it set up, and it was only
interrupted because I had to unplug and move it to its new rack. (Before
that I just had it on occasionally to play with.) It's the master internal
DNS, and all the clients query it, and all the other servers mirror it.
Seniority matters on my network.

Btw, I just put NetBSD on a 7300+G3/500 over the weekend and with an ATA/100
drive, it cooks. But this is now off-topic. :-D

-- 
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- Artificial intelligence is no match for natural idiocy. --------------------

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:09:24 2003

> RAM in a 68k Mac is just to good to be true.

Yes, but I have 128MB in my IIci :-))))

-- 
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- New political correctness is but old fascism [writ] large. - Dr Digby James

---

From: Roger Merchberger <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:09:36 2003

Rumor has it that Hans Franke may have mentioned these words:

[snip]

>Now, why having a Mac and then installing some Unix?

One [big] word: Multitasking. I had it before the Mac even *existed*... I 
was amazed how long it took for the Mac ( & PeeCee, to be fair) to get it.

It's why my stacked '386sx was little more than a Nintendo, and my Tandy 
CoCo3 was still my workhorse, well into the '90s.

Tschuß (und Prost),
Roger "Merch" Merchberger

--
Roger "Merch" Merchberger -- sysadmin, Iceberg Computers
[email-masked]

What do you do when Life gives you lemons,
and you don't *like* lemonade?????????????

---

From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:11:00 2003

My friend and I are collaborating on juicing a IIci as high as it will go.
Right now it has 128MB RAM, two SCSI disks (No floppy mod) a Daystar 100MHz
PowerPC upgrade card, and a fast Radius video card. I'm working on a fast
SCSI controller, and maybe a faster video card.

What would be the fastest video card you could drop in a classic, NuBus
based Mac? I've got a Radius 24MXtv that's about the old equivalent of a ATI
All-in-wonder, all singing and all dancing, but drivers are impossible to
find.

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:13:07 2003

Fastest NUBUS video card I know of is the Radius Thunder IV 1600, good luck
finding one. Alot of that speed is from the built in DSP chips that
accelerate photoshop. I have the plain supermac thunder IV without the DSP
addon board and its not faster then the built in video on my Q950 for normal
video (the built in video doesnt use the nubus bus so its faster then just
about any addon board for normal video)

The fastest 68k upgrade to a nubus non PPC mac would be a Rocket 68040/40
(or maybe a 50) nubus card.

With either one of these options your transering data through the nubus slot
which reminds me of the old ISA slots on PC's (SLOW AS HELL)

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 2:46 PM
Subject: Souping up Classic Macs: was Reading various format 5.25" floppies
on a PC

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:13:33 2003

> All-in-wonder, all singing and all dancing, but drivers are impossible to

There's a particular Radius model that escapes me which blows the doors off
everything. Again, drivers will be the killer here. I *think* it's the
Thunder IV GX.

My favourite accelerated NuBus video card, and the one I always try to get
(Mike Ford knows my affinity for these), is the exceptional 8*24*GC. This
monstrous card has a very fast 2D accelerated pipeline in addition to
providing very good 24-bit colour. Screen repaints are extremely snappy,
in addition to copies and blitting (I ran a benchmark against internal
video using Snooper, and the results were very impressive).

The bad news with the GC is that the control panel, which is required to
enable QuickDraw acceleration, is notoriously finicky. It will only run
100% on System 7.1 or lower; on 7.5 and up it will cause screen glitching
(probably some off-screen GWorld interaction), and I don't know if it will
run at all in OS 8. It also won't work on 68040s. (However, all my 68K
Macs in day-to-day operation are '030s or lower running 7.1 or earlier
[except the NetBSD IIci], so this is perfectly fine with me.) By the way,
I did try the control panel under A/UX once and I was VERY sorry. It took
me almost an hour to dig it out of there since it made A/UX Finder
system-error every time I tried to log in (a frantic Launcher shell
session and some threats of violence later, order was restored).

You, however, are in an interesting position. It has been said that the GC
*will* be accelerated using the ATI PowerPC Graphics Accelerator extension
under OS 7.6, and since you've got a 601-based IIci, you might be able to
test this out. GCs are not that expensive, and even if you can't get the
acceleration working, you'll still have a decent 24-bit card (without the
accelerator, it's functionally identical to the Apple 8*24). Here's an
article on that topic:

	http://www.lowendmac.com/video/apple8-24gc.shtml

While you're at it, read all the LowEndMac video card reviews; they're very
interesting.

-- 
---------------------------------- personal: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Floodgap Systems Ltd * So. Calif., USA * [email-masked]
-- The truth is out there. The speculation, however, is really out there. -----

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:13:45 2003

> > Yes, but I have 128MB in my IIci :-))))

Now tell me, a 25 MHz 030 on 128 Meg, or a 33 MHz 040
on 56 Meg, what's supposed to give you a better user
experiance?

Ok, if you use a bloated thing like unix, then maybe
Memory is more important, cause it's already slow :)
For a Mac, Made to work quite fine with 8-12 MB, 56
is basicly unfillable.

Serious, if you had said a Quadra 950, with 256 MB RAM,
I'd had to give in, but below that, nothing beats the
630/640 DOS. It has a huge RAM size and soppurts standard
PS2 RAM (cheap), has an extended LC slot, so supporting
Regular LC Cards and extended ones. Not to mention the
additional communication slot for Networking cards and
the video slot.

Ok, it's not a 'general' slotsystem, but then again
who cares? If I can plug in whatever needed it's all
I need. I'm not that exalted to require my cards to
be pluged in in alphabetic order :)

> All-in-wonder, all singing and all dancing, but drivers are impossible to

Nice, but wouldn't it be more interesting to get the
best possible base (like a Q950) before starting the
fine tuneing? If the engine is already weak, big tires
don't realy change the experiance.

Gruss
H.

---

From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:14:11 2003

> which reminds me of the old ISA slots on PC's (SLOW AS HELL)

Not bad, but clock chipping
http://homepage.mac.com/schrier/mhz.html
might be a cheaper and better idea (again the 630 is top notch
here ... just move two resistors around and you got 40 MHz....
makes it 4 times as fast as a ci :)

Gruss
H.

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:14:25 2003

I find my 840AV 68040/40 with 128mb ram to be pretty snappy, same with my
Q950 (with server card + full cache simms) with 128+mb ram.

As far as unix on a mac goes, will let you know in a week or so when A/UX
3.0 with full manuals shows up on my doorstep.

I wanted to try A/UX out on my IIfx but with only 8mb or memory I would
either have to find A/UX 2.0 or more memory for 3.0 (both are hard to do
within $$$ reason).

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Hans Franke" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 3:52 PM
Subject: Re: Souping up Classic Macs: was Reading various format 5.25"
floppies on a PC

---

From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:20:45 2003

A/UX Runs very snappy on my AWS 95. I'm waiting to get my network together
so I can NFS it some more disk space.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 4:26 PM
Subject: Re: Souping up Classic Macs: was Reading various format 5.25"
floppies on a PC

> > > based Mac? I've got a Radius 24MXtv that's about the old equivalent of
a
> ATI

---

From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:20:58 2003

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:03 PM
Subject: Re: Souping up Classic Macs: was Reading various format 5.25"
floppies on a PC

> so I can NFS it some more disk space.

What version are you running, how much disk space and memory do you have?

---

From: "Jason McBrien" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 19 17:23:12 2003

It's got a 1GB hard drive and 32MB of DRAM.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "TeoZ" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:27 PM
Subject: Re: Souping up Classic Macs: was Reading various format 5.25"
floppies on a PC

---

From: Mike Ford <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 24 18:13:19 2003

Whenever I hear about reading various format floppies, I fall back to 
thinking how neat it would be to REALLY understand and use some of these 
darn Daynafile boxes I have.
The one currently sitting nearest to me is SCSI connection, with 360k and 
1.2M drives.