Subject: Looking for data on the MAN2815 display and Nat'l Semi DS8867

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:38:12 2003

Over in the Yahoo Group for the Cosmac Elf, a few of us have picked up
these MSI/88 barcode "terminals" for a couple of bucks surplus.  Mine
arrived yesterday.  They are interesting because they are hand-held
1802 devices with a serial port and either an LED or LCD text display
(all of mine are the LED model).  I'm trying to assist in the reverse
engineering and can *not* find any data on the LED display itself, a
MAN2815, nor one of the chips that seems to be driving it, a National
DS8867.

I have googled for an hour looking for them.  No results.

Anybody heard of these parts?

-ethan

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:38:41 2003

On Mar 5,  7:29, Ethan Dicks wrote:

> I'm trying to assist in the reverse

> Anybody heard of these parts?

Yes :-)  The MAN series used to be popular but I'm afraid I don't have
any data.  However, I do have a data sheet for the DS8867 -- it gets a
page-and-a-bit in the 1980 Nat Semi Interface Data Book:

DS8867 is an 18-pin DIP 8-segment constant-current driver, designed to
be driven from MOS circuits operateing at 8V +/-10% minimum, and will
supply 14mA typical current to an LED display.  Output current is not
sensitive to Vcc variations.

Features:
  internal current control - no external resistors
  100% efficient - no standby power
  operates in 3- and 4-cell battery systems
  inputs and outputs grouped for easy PC placement

Absolute maximum ratings:
  Vcc              7V
  input voltage   10V
  output voltage  10V

Operating conditions:
  Vcc                    min 3.3V   max 6.0V
  ambient temperature    min 0deg C max 70deg C
  logical '1' input      typ 4.9V   max 5.4V
  logical '0' input      typ 0.1uA  max 10uA
  logical '1' output     min -8mA  typ -14mA  max -18mA
  logical '0' output     typ -0.5uA max -10uA

Pinout is straightforward, pins 1..8 are inputs 1..8, pin 9 is ground,
pins 10..17 are outputs 8..1 (ie the outputs are almost opposite the
inputs), pin 18 is Vcc.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:39:01 2003

--- Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > I...  can *not* find any data on the LED display itself, a
> > MAN2815, nor... a National DS8867.
> 
> any data.

I have some MAN series displays in my Dragon's Lair scoreboard, but
they are simple 7-segment devices (and scanned schematics are available)

Thanks for the tip on the DS8867.  The description matches perfectly
with where it is on the board.

-ethan

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 17 00:17:34 2003

> 1  x HP9000K-class HPK400CM long rack with

You scare me :^)  I've seen K-class systems, not what I'd want at home!

> 1  x DEC7620 wow, a 7000 in my garage I have not checked out the inside,
>       don't know my way in those yet, it's all behind closed doors.

You have a 7000, you haven't figured out how to open it up, AND you wasted
all this time typing this up?!?!  You've better willpower than I would!

> 1  x DEC3000 looks like the successor to the BA23 uVAX-II

I'm sure there might be someone somewhere that like's 3000's, but I'm not
one of them.  In fact based on the way you describe this one this has got to
be one that scares me almost as much as that K-Class :^)

> blessed with tape drives:
> 1 x TLZ07 DAT
> 2 x TZ86  DLT III
> 1 x TZ88  DLT IV
> 1 x TSZ07 9-track
> 1 x TZ867 DLT III library
> 2 x QIC tape drives (150MB, 18 tapes)
> 
> 2 x VT510

Oh, drool!  As if the 7000 wasn't bad enough, just this stuff would make one
heck of a nice haul!!!

> 10+ x "DW22A-AA" boxes, some kind of SCSI converters, they uses lots
>        of those, don't know what for.

The HSZ's talk differential SCSI, could it that these are SE-to-DIFF
converters.  Will such things work with the HSZ's?  I've got two big
array's, but they're sitting in storage till we get a house, so I've not
been able to experiment with them.

Overall, I think I'm green with envy!!!  Well, except for that K-Class :^)

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 21 12:23:01 2003

> 	It cost a few bucks to get, but I know what these beasties can do...
> 
> 	What beastie? Oh, sorry... an Ancot DCS-216FT standalone SCSI bus
>       analyzer, in pretty darn good shape. Snagged it from Ebay for $250.
>       Considering that I've rarely seen them going for less than a grand, 
>       I think I got a decent enough deal.

<CLANK>

That was the sound of my jaw dropping!  There is a certain major
manufacturer of SCSI devices that I'm familiar with that only has two SCSI
Bus Analyzers (and the FE that works on our equipment can never get one). 
So, I'd say that's a pretty good score!

			Zane

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 21 14:17:10 2003

At 08:40 PM 3/21/03 +0100, Gruss wrote:
>> > Knew there was a reason why I wasn't a real Apple fan:
>
>> > >Gore Joins Apple Board
>
>> > >Apple CEO Steve Jobs said Gore "brings an incredible wealth 
>> > >of knowledge and wisdom to Apple from having run the largest 
>> > >organization in the world--the United States government--as 
>> > >a congressman, senator and our 45th vice president."
>> > >http://eletters1.ziffdavis.com/cgi-bin10/flo/y/eUOp0BzN6x0DUm0vVG0AK
>> >     Joe
>
>> Yep, I view this as and MacOS X as good reasons to give up on Apple.
>
>Hey, the LC475 and Performa 630 ar the best Macs ever, and I'll
>keep them working... and what's wrong with having the man who
>'took initiative in creating the internet' (he never daid he
>invented it) playing a role at the company which invented the
>GUI :)

   Sorry to disagree with you but you're wrong. I personally saw an interview with him where he claimed that he "invented the internet".  I don't think I need to give my opinion of the idiot here!

   Frankly I can't imagine why Apple would want him.

   Joe

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 21 20:05:21 2003

At 12:35 PM 3/21/03 -0800, you wrote:
>--- Joe <[email-masked]> wrote:
>Why did Commodore put Alexander Haig on their board?  I remember a
>press release at the time that said they were looking for a "take-
>charge kind of guy." 

   They certainly got one!

    Joe

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Mar 22 06:43:49 2003

> > I usually leave them behind but I picked up one yesterday for parts. this
> > one is a Q-bus card and has an AM2901ADC bit slice CPU, an Intel 8085, an
> > intel 8155 and an Intel 8253. It says that it's model # FWD 0106, Assy #
> > 000420-0001, Fab # 0004222 Rev C.
> 
> I'm not so familiar with SMS products... what connectors are on the
> edge of the board?

I've never seen an SMS product that was actually Q-Bus.  The SMS systems I
used to have had all the I/O on a *big* board that the Q-Bus backplane
connected into.  The only Q-Bus boards you had to have were CPU and Memory.

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Mar 22 07:12:20 2003

> I think you got one of those SMS Q-Bus Boxes from me. They are an interesting 
> system. A small QBus system piggybacked into a SMS Hard/Floppy drive box. I 
> remember one with 8" drives and one with 5" drives, rack mount approximately 
> 2U in size.

I got both of them at the same time I got the PDP-11/44 from you (I still
have the /44).

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 23 09:54:10 2003

> so I sorted through my last weekend's bait, hooked up my new HSZ40
> (with 50 GB in 4 StorageWorks boxes plus all sorts of tape drives,
> TSZ07, TLZ07, TZ68, and ~88) to my PC for FreeBSD. It's so much
> fun to read a 9-track reel from a FreeBSD PC (just too bad it doesn't
> have a transparent top cover to show off the reels).
> 
> I have bulk-erased a bunch of TK50 tapes in the hopes that they
> would work as DLT III and IV tapes as well, but these drives
> still went into write-protect mode. Does anyone here know details
> about the DLT media? I mean it is a well-known fact (and I proved
> it to myself many times) that CompacTape I works just fine as
> CompacTape II. So why not as III and IV? Is it really the tape
> or might it be some notches on the cassette that are used to
> code the kind of tape?
> 
> The problem is I didn't get any tape media for my nice DLT tape drives
> and this stuff is so darn expensive if bought new. Any ideas?

I really hope you didn't wreck that TZ86 and TZ88, thankfully these are the
DEC drives and I think they might be more forgiving than something like a
DLT2000 or DLT4000 drive.  IIRC, the TZ86 is capable of reading TK50 and
TK70 tapes.  There is a drastic difference between TK50/70 and DLT III & IV
media!  I don't remember the specifics on the differences, part of it is
that it writes in a different manner, and part is that the tape is
different.
	
			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Mar 23 09:54:30 2003

> Turns out that this machine once ran under OSF/1 as all the disk
> had OSF/1 bootblocks on them. But unfortunately none of the disks
> I had left were actually bootable (missing osf_boot or causing
> some panic. So, my question is, where can I get a UNIX system
> for this machine? Are there any copies of OSF (bootables) around?
> How about DEC-UNIX? NetBSD/Alpha (or FreeBSD for that matter)
> won't run until we have fixed lack of an XMI bus driver.  Are
> there any port-alpha people who are working on this XMI issue? (On
> the port-vax side it depends mainly on Ragge and the very few folks
> with VAX6000s to do that.)

DEC/Compaq used to offer Tru64 Hobbyist for about $100.  It included CD's
and permanent license PAKs.  Unfortunatly I don't know if they still offer
it, or where to get info on it.

Besides, why waste nice HW like that with Unix, put OpenVMS on it :^)

			Zane

---

From: "John Allain" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 24 12:22:44 2003

> about the DLT media?...

To add a some info. as to a near answer to this question, I was able
to _read_ TK50's into an Alpha with a ~20GB DLT drive (don't recall
the designator) back in 1997 when that drive was nearly new.  I don't
believe that the newer drive had any chance of _writing_ reinit format
information (after a bulk erase) onto such a tape.

John A.

---

From: Stan Pietkiewicz <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 24 12:29:22 2003

Zane H. Healy wrote:

<<snip>>
> that it writes in a different manner, and part is that the tape is

One DLT2000 drive I have is also labelled "Not TK50/TK70 certified". The 
implication of the label is that there may have been drives produced 
with better backwards compatibility.

About newer DLT media: I've seen varying prices for the tapes on EPay, 
ranging from "good deal" status to "I'm sure I could find them new for 
that price!!". YMMV...

---

From: Huw Davies <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 24 12:30:27 2003

At 08:47 PM 23/03/2003 -0500, Gunther Schadow wrote:

>Hey Zane, I may be a UNIX weenie from your perspective, and I did take
>a day or two before I explored the DEC7000, and it will not run VMS,
>but I am not so crazy as to "wreck" good tape drives :-) I just wish
>the 20GB tape media wasn't almost as expensive as a 20 GB hard drive

I may be mis-parsing this, but I can certainly confirm that a DEC7000 will
run OpenVMS. I used to manage a VMS cluster that had two VAX-6620s and a
DEC7740 all running OpenVMS 6.2 very nicely.

Huw Davies           | e-mail: [email-masked]
Melbourne            | "If soccer was meant to be played in the
Australia            | air, the sky would be painted green"

---

From: Gunther Schadow <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 24 12:31:08 2003

Zane H. Healy wrote:
> DLT2000 or DLT4000 drive.  

:-)

cheers,
-Gunther

---

From: [email-masked] (Eric Dittman)
Date: Mon Mar 24 12:31:28 2003

> the 20GB tape media wasn't almost as expensive as a 20 GB hard drive

DEC7000 systems can run VMS.
-- 
Eric Dittman
[email-masked]

---

From: Gunther Schadow <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 24 16:58:41 2003

>>a day or two before I explored the DEC7000, and it will not run VMS, 
[...]

 > DEC7000 systems can run VMS.

I didn't say "this type of machine can't run VMS", I said "this
machine will not run VMS" (and forgot to say: under my hands.)

cheers,
-Gunther

---

From: [email-masked] (Eric Dittman)
Date: Mon Mar 24 16:59:02 2003

> machine will not run VMS" (and forgot to say: under my hands.)

That clears things up.
-- 
Eric Dittman
[email-masked]

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 26 06:19:17 2003

> > What about software that will emulate a VT100 on a PC?
> 
> Not that I'm the original requestor (I have VT52s, VT100s, VT220s
> and VT240s, myself), but if one is going to consider using an
> emulator, one has to ask does it do double-high-double-wide?  132 column?
> Have a PF1/Gold key for EDT, etc.?

That's the *real* trick, finding *anything* that comes close to giving you
keypad support along with any other features that you might require.  I can
live without the double-high-double-wide and 132 column, but I've got to
have the keypad!

> I use emulators because I have to, but occasionally I find times where I
> _really_ want a terminal (and not just 'cause it looks right).  OTOH, if
> I need to force-feed stuff down the throat of a classic system, even
> an xterm window that's connected in some way to a serial port (kermit,
> typically), is a great way to go.

I find that the following script, that I got off of USENET a few years ago,
is able to turn a Xterm into a usable VT100 (with keypad support).
ftp://zane.brouhaha.com/pub/vms/vt100.sh

> But, I suspect, in this case, it's simple aesthetics - the VT100 was
> the dominant terminal when the 11/44 was current.  It's nice to have
> the proper accessories for ones vintage machines.

I think Jay said as much, and I know that is why I've got a DECwriter II and
three VT100's.  They're for my /44, despite the fact that I really prefer a
VT420 (and that's all I've used on the /44 so far).  Still I've got them so
that should I ever want, I can set the /44 up for a 'museum type' display.

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 27 12:42:10 2003

> On Tuesday, March 25, 2003, Jay West wrote:
> > FYI - I'm likely going to be bidding on the DEC "3 high" rack on Ebay that
> > includes an RA81. The RA81 is missing the HDA, and I have no need for it,
> > I just want the rack as it's the right height to mate to my 11/44X. If
> > anyone wants the RA81-HDA, let me know before it gets skipped.
> 
> :-) Of my 12 RA81s, 10 or so have Post-it notes saying "Bad HDA". I'm
> starting to see a pattern here...

If you look at the seller on eBay's auctions, you'll notice that he's pulled
all the 'high demand' parts from everything that he's selling.  In fact I
don't think he's selling anything that's actually usable, unless like Jay
you need a specific part of what he's selling.

		Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 12:49:28 2003

> I want to attempt to install OpenVMS 7.2 via MOP over the network, to do this I
> need to get the files off the CD since I don't actually have another VAX to read
> the CD on.  (I'm using a Linux host running mopd...  I was able to install
> NetBSD that way)
> 
> Anyone know how I could read the data off the CD under Linux or *BSD ?

Is there ODS-2 filesystem support for Linux?  I think there might be, and
that's what you would need to be able to read the CD.  Take a look at the
DECnet/Linux project, if there is ODS-2 support, they should have a link to
it.

Another alternative might be to get SIMH running on the Linux box, install
VMS on that, and then use SIMH (which includes network support) to get
OpenVMS installed on the VAX.  I've no idea if this would work, and if you
get it working I'm sure others would be interested in knowing how you did
it.

		Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 12:51:30 2003

>    Are these drives worth anything?

There a 5MB drive.  I think the major use for them is Hobbyist systems, 
commercial systems using RL0x drives probably use the 10MB RL02 drives
(though I'm sure there are some commercial installations still using
RL01's).

			Zane

---

From: "" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 12:54:05 2003

> get it working I'm sure others would be interested in knowing how you did

I'll look into this.   I plan to write it all up in a HOWTO somewhere if I get
it all working since I've now spent days searching google, etc to no avail.

Thanks, I'll keep everyone updated.

-jwb

---

From: "" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 28 12:54:55 2003

> it all working since I've now spent days searching google, etc to no avail.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/lelegard/vmscd/

That will read an ODS-2 CD under Linux (and possibly other UNIX varients?)...

Movin full steam ahead..

-jwb

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 31 19:07:05 2003

--- Eric Dittman <[email-masked]> wrote:
> An ES40 would not be bad.  It's the same
> size as a rack-mounted AS4100.  The only thing to do
> is wait until they come down in price.

I know where a couple of those are, but I'll have to wait until
my employer gets tired of them.  It could be a while.  :-(

-ethan

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Mar 31 19:09:46 2003

> I have installed OSF/1 on the AXP 7000 and it's working. Quite a bit
> more snappy than the VAX6460. Man, I have no room for this machine
> left and now I love it so much!

I don't doubt it's a nice machine, much larger than I'm brave enough to
tackle though.  The biggest such machine I'd like would be a VAX4000 class
system.  Eventually I'd like to get something like an DS20 or ES40 for 
running VMSon. 

> I'd give you login account (over my dialup IP) just the problem I
> am having is that after I built the custom kernel it still won't
> let any user other than root login. It says "too many users logged
> in alread, try again later". And that with zero users logged in
> at the time. Can you think of any file I might be overlooking?
> I can only think of /etc/nologin or something. My maxusers is at 32
> in the kernel configuration. I can't think why this would not be
> correct in the kernel.

Do you have License PAK's installed that allow multiple users?  For that
matter, do you have any License PAK's installed?  If you don't have
licenses, a lot of stuff won't work.

			Zane

---

From: [email-masked] (Eric Dittman)
Date: Mon Mar 31 19:11:06 2003

> system.  Eventually I'd like to get something like an DS20 or ES40 for 

I know what you mean.  I keep a VAX 4000-100A for VAX
stuff, an Alphastation 500/500 as a workstation, and
my main server is an Alphaserver 4100 5/466.  I don't
think I'd want to have something much bigger than the
AS4100.  An ES40 would not be bad.  It's the same
size as a rack-mounted AS4100.  The only thing to do
is wait until they come down in price.
-- 
Eric Dittman
[email-masked]

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 2 02:50:25 2003

> And thusly Zane H. Healy spake:
> > 
> > >P.S. The place I have found with the *most* selection of magazines is the
> > >World's Biggest Bookstore in downtown Toronto.
> > 
> > If some place can beat Powells Books, then how big are they?  Powells Books
> > takes up an entire city block, is multi-story for a good chunk of that
> > block.  They don't even stock technical books in the main store, for that
> > you've got to go a couple blocks away and the Technical Bookstore is has
> > more books than most normal bookstores!  Plus they've got so many books
> > that they had to open another LARGE store about 20 minutes away, and then
> > finally get at least one warehouse.  They've been one of Amazon's major
> > suppliers from Amazon's start.
> > 
> 
> When it originally came into being, there were no other book stores (that I 
> knew of) like it.  Nowadays the Chapters and B&N's are about the same size.

Then the main Powells has them beat without even trying.  Shoot, Powells
Technical is almost that big :^)

		Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 15 21:37:00 2003

> > Just checking since I've seen others slip before ...
> >
> > The RRD42 takes the standard "flip-top" caddy that
> > must have been made in their millions.
> 
> Well, that's a relief.  Can you point me to a source for these common caddies?

Try places that carry old PC junk.  This type of CD-ROM was used primarily in
1-4x CD-ROM's that were seen in PC's (the fastest I've seen is an 8x that I
put in my PDP-11/73).  Of course you can also find this style CD-ROM in DEC,
Sun, and probably other manufacturer's equipment (I think Apple had one
drive of this style).

Actually your best place to look might be eBay, I'd imagine they're pretty
easy to find there.

Just be glad you don't have one of the drives that use the 'pincer' caddies!

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Apr 15 21:38:46 2003

> A Sun SPARCserver 20 model 544 with 2-20gig HD's, 256 MB memory and loaded
> with software but I have no password to login with.

Isn't the model that has 4 50Mhz CPU's?  If so that *IS* a *VERY COOL* find! 
You can probably boot it in single user mode and clear the password.

		Zane

---

From: "Jeffrey S. Worley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 16 21:30:27 2003

If that machine is running Solaris, booting single won't get you there.
You'll still need the root pw to get a prompt.  I have a way though.
Email me and I'll give you the skinny on how to break this machine.

Regards,

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 9:33 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Some Cool Sun stuff Today

> with software but I have no password to login with.

Isn't the model that has 4 50Mhz CPU's?  If so that *IS* a *VERY COOL*
find! 
You can probably boot it in single user mode and clear the password.

		Zane

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:21:44 2003

--- steven <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Hmm, try saying that 3 times real fast...
> The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
> http://search.yahoo.com

Please post the source, if you find one.  I have an Atari plotter
and a Commodore plotter (model 1520) that use the same mechanism
and the same pens.

What I could _really_ use is a source of the gear that fits directly
on the X and Y motor shafts.  I have tried going to local RC car and
model train shops, but they don't carry gears.  This thread has come
up before, but I still don't know how to sit down and accurately
determine the physical characteristics of these gears to the
satsifaction of a mail-order gear vendor.  I can mic the shaft, I
can count teeth, but the rest eludes me.

I did buy a handful of plot engines from a surplus house.  80%
had fractured gears.  :-(

-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo
http://search.yahoo.com

---

From: "Jeffrey S. Worley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:23:05 2003

B&C Computervisions in California not only has a LOT of plotters, but
knows quite well about the gear problem.

IIRC, the plotters are common in mechanism between Atari, Commodore, and
Radio Shack.  I think they were made by Alps? They differ somewhat in
case and interface, but otherwise parts interchange readily.

Anawho, we are probably talking about this plotter which mechanism is
the same as that of the Atari 1020.  It is a 40-column plotter which has
four pens, black, red, blue and green esconced in a revolving cylinder
not unlike that of a 4shot Derringer pistol and which prints on a 4" or
so roll of register paper.

The pens, paper, and parts for the plotter are all available new at B&C.

If we are talking about the same plotter, then off you go.
Otherwise.... errr... disregard this message and the pedant behind it's
creation.

;-)

Regards,

jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Thursday, April 17, 2003 10:20 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Wanted: TRS-80 PC-2 Pocket Computer Plotter pens

-ethan

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:23:28 2003

> knows quite well about the gear problem.

I see...  they do mention having Atari 1020 plotters with and without
known good gears.  I've dropped them a line about a handful of just
the gears.

> case and interface, but otherwise parts interchange readily.

AFAIK, the plotter engine is abolutely identical.  I used to buy
my pens and paper at Radio Shack.  I still have an unopened box of
paper and a tube of unopened pens.  Hope they still write.  :-)
 
> so roll of register paper.

Bingo.  I wrote a few programs for the Commodore 1520 about 16 years ago.
Unfortunately for emulation purposes, the C= ROM code is embedded in
a 6502-family microcontroller, so any emulation has to be by inspection,
not by, um, "borrowing". 

> The pens, paper, and parts for the plotter are all available new at B&C.

Thanks for the tip.  Found 'em.

I found a parts list at http://www.myatari.com/bc800hw.txt but the
gears are not listed seperately, just some other parts like the
pen carriage.

-ethan

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:23:51 2003

> can count teeth, but the rest eludes me.

There are two common ways of specifying gears.  One is by diametral
pitch (DP), where you specify, in effect, the distance between teeth
(actually it's done by dividing the number of teeth by the pitch
diameter).  The other, mostly used for metric gears, is by "module",
and is the reciprocal of DP, ie you divide the pitch diameter by the
number of teeth.  Gears that mesh will have the same DP (and, of course
the same module).

The trick is to find the pitch diameter -- that's the "effective"
diameter of the gear wheel.  If you're using DP, for normal gears the
amount of the tooth above and below the pitch diameter, called the
addendum and dedendum, is standardised, and it conveniently works out
such that if you can accurately measure the outside diameter (OD), and
you can count the number of teeth (t), you can easily work out the DP
without actually measuring the pitch diameter directly:

    OD = (t+2) / DP   therefore   DP = (t+2) / OD

and if you do need to know the pitch diameter, then since DP = t/p it's
just p = t/DP.

There's just one caveat: those formulae only apply to gears with a 20
degree pressure angle, and with more than 15 or so teeth (otherwise you
need to make some corrections as the angles get more extreme).

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: "Jeffrey S. Worley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:24:02 2003

I used to have the 1020 model and wrote some cool stuff for it. 

Here's a nice idea for a project.  I did this one about 15years ago, but
still have the warez I coded.

3feet plastic fiber optic cable (shielded).
1ea fiber optic detector (is a vpot)
1ea 9pin joystick port connector.

Wire the output of the IRD to the potentiometer port on your
Atari/commie/whatever.  Strip the end of the cable to expose about 1/8th
inch.  Wrap electrical tape around the end of the cable til' it is the
same diameter as the pens.  Remove a pen from the plotter and substitute
the fiber for it.  The exposed end of the fiber should protrude a little
through the metal spring return for the pens.

The rest should be obvious, but put a porno magazine 1/2 page into the
plotter and shine a BRIGHT light at the page.  Run my program.  It
stepps the plotter, samples the returned light for that spot and assigns
a greyscale to it, posts that pixel to the screen, stepps the potter,
samples, etc til' the image in in memory.  Works pretty well.  I used an
emitter/detector set from Radio shock to do this back in 85' or 86'.  It
does not pick up text well (low rez destination screen).  Greens and
blues don't register well which is one of the reasons for the BRIGHT
light.  I used a 100watt bulb in a flexible desk lamp.

The Radio shack pens are compatible with this mechanism, but they are a
little thicker at the end which makes them a tight fit in the Atari
version.  Still work though.

If your pens dry out in storage, boil them for a few minutes in a pot of
water.  That should rejuvenate them.

Regards,

Jeff

<SNIP>

AFAIK, the plotter engine is abolutely identical.  I used to buy my pens
and paper at Radio Shack.  I still have an unopened box of paper and a
tube of unopened pens.  Hope they still write.  :-)
 
> the same as that of the Atari 1020.  It is a 40-column plotter which 
> has four pens, black, red, blue and green esconced in a revolving 
> cylinder not unlike that of a 4shot Derringer pistol and which prints 
> on a 4" or so roll of register paper.

Bingo.  I wrote a few programs for the Commodore 1520 about 16 years
ago. Unfortunately for emulation purposes, the C= ROM code is embedded
in a 6502-family microcontroller, so any emulation has to be by
inspection, not by, um, "borrowing".

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:24:37 2003

> and a Commodore plotter (model 1520) that use the same mechanism

There seem to be 2 types of mechanism -- the 4" (or so) one used in the 
Atari, Commodore 1520, Radio Shack CGP115, Sharp MZ730 (I think -- it's 
one of the MZ700s), etc, and the 2" (or so) one used with the Sharp 
PC1500 and TRS-80 PC2. Apart from the obvious changes for the different 
width (frame and platten roller) they are identical.

I believe they're made by Alps. I have the exploded diagrams and parts 
lists for the 4" one, but the motor gears are not shown as a separate 
part :-(

> What I could _really_ use is a source of the gear that fits directly

Couldn't we all!. This is a major problem with these plotters -- the 
plastic seems to have been the wrong type, or the hole was made too small 
(thus stressing the plastic too much when the gear was fitted) or 
something. I think _all_ my plotters (a 1520, a CGP115, another 
CGP115-like thing with the PSU internal, a couple of Sharp units for the 
PC1500) have at least one broken gear.

> can count teeth, but the rest eludes me.

I will have to look up the exact procedure (the standard rules-of-thumb 
may not apply in this case). It shouldn't be too hard to figure out... 
Maybe then I should try and make either a brass replacement (which would 
outlast the rest of the machine), or a lantern pinion type of thing (which 
would have the advantage of not needing a special milling cutter to 
make, but which strictly would need different shape teeth on the gear it 
meshes with. That probably doesn't matter though).

-tony

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:26:25 2003

> but I still don't know how to sit down and accurately
 > determine the physical characteristics of these gears

Look up gears/gearing in Machinery's Handbook for a definition
of all the defining parameters for gears.

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:12 2003

On Thu, 17 Apr 2003, Ethan Dicks wrote:
> Please post the source, if you find one.  I have an Atari plotter and a
> Commodore plotter (model 1520) that use the same mechanism and the same
> pens.

I think I'm gonna be kicking myself for passing up on a literal pile of
these for the next 10 years. There was a RadioShack outlet store in
Houston with 100s of packages of these that I could have had for
$0.05-$0.10/ea or maybe $5-10 for the whole lot. I never got around to
picking them up, and the store seems to be gone now. As of 2-3 years or so
ago they still had all kinds of TRS80 parts and supplies. I imagine the
stock was dumped when they closed the store. At least I picked up their
stock of data cassettes and cassette interface cables...

> What I could _really_ use is a source of the gear that fits directly on
> the X and Y motor shafts.  I have tried going to local RC car and model
> train shops, but they don't carry gears.  This thread has come up
> before, but I still don't know how to sit down and accurately determine
> the physical characteristics of these gears to the satsifaction of a
> mail-order gear vendor.  I can mic the shaft, I can count teeth, but the
> rest eludes me.
>
> I did buy a handful of plot engines from a surplus house.  80% had
> fractured gears.  :-(

I wonder if there are enough of us with these plotters to justify having a
batch of replacement gears made somewhere?

-Toth

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:27:24 2003

On Tue, 15 Apr 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> Try places that carry old PC junk.  This type of CD-ROM was used
> primarily in 1-4x CD-ROM's that were seen in PC's (the fastest I've seen
> is an 8x that I put in my PDP-11/73).  Of course you can also find this
> style CD-ROM in DEC, Sun, and probably other manufacturer's equipment (I
> think Apple had one drive of this style).

SGI used Toshiba drives that used these caddies for their 4D Deskside
systems. Apple had a number of drives that used these caddies. I have an
external Apple cdrom that uses them, and it seems like the MacTV systems
I've seen also used them.

> Actually your best place to look might be eBay, I'd imagine they're
> pretty easy to find there.
>

Just how uncommon are the RRD40 caddies? I managed to obtain some caddies
for my RRD40, so I think I've been rather lucky. I remember reading not
too long ago that the things seemed to be made of unobtanium.

[Note to the folks who are considering emailing me to ask if I will give
away a caddy: You couldn't pry my RRD40 caddies from my cold dead
fingers.]

-Toth

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:28:57 2003

--- Tothwolf <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I wonder if there are enough of us with these plotters to justify having
> a batch of replacement gears made somewhere?

I doubt if we'd have to have gears made-to-order.  It's mostly a
question of measuring the critical dimensions in a manner that
is meaningful to a gear maker.

I was hoping to find a way to order these from someone's catalog, then
make an offer to buy a quantity bag and distribute them to folks on
a variety of lists including the CBM Hacker's list and here.  I don't
mind buying q. 100 and being a gear-go-to-guy, but I still don't know
how to take a physical gear and sit there with a handful of measuring
tools to get _all_ of the critical dimensions (number of teeth and
shaft diameter are trivial...)

-ethan

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:29:09 2003

> of all the defining parameters for gears.

That's a nice tip, but could you go one step further and give
the complete title of a book I could go to the Library Reference
section and ask for?  I'm not being a smartass; I'm just fairly
ignorant about the mechanical aspects of moving parts.

Now, if you'd said "look up *foo* in the CRC", I'd just go down
to my bookshelf and pull out my copy.  I have no such things
for mechanical engineering, just EE and a tid bit of chemistry.

Thanks,

-ethan

---

From: Mail List <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:29:46 2003

Hello Ethan,

re:  Machinery's Handbook

That was the complete title. Check out these links ...

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=Machinery%27s+Handbook&btnG=Google+Search

http://search.ebay.com/search/search.dll?MfcISAPICommand=GetResult&ht=1&query2=Machinery%27s+Handbook&search_option=1&minPrice=&maxPrice=&category0=&exclude=&st=&SortProperty=MetaEndSort&maxRecordsPerPage=50&worldlocation=ebayavail&region=0&available_to=1&located_in=1&ebaycurr=&submit=+Search+&siteid=0&query=Machinery%27s+Handbook&shortcut=&ebaytag1code_tmp=&ebaytag1_tmp=&ebaytag1code=&ebaytag1=&ebaytag12=ebayreg&from=R6

---

From: John Lawson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:30:11 2003

> the complete title of a book I could go to the Library Reference

  Y'all cain't do wifout yer Masheenry's Handbook, Clem!  Hits got it all!

  Vide: http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=166743258

for just one recent example.  www.abebooks.com lists more than a hundred,
from 1919 to the present, from about $10 to over $300 (hope springs
eternal!)

  It truly is a nice volume to have on your reference shelf, just for
times like this. Kinda like the Merck Index but for machinists. About 1300
pages, indexed and usually thumb-niched like a dictionary.

  At the library, look up: Oberg and Jones, Machinery's Handbook.
 But as cheap as they are (you most likely will find one locally, or at
Dayton this year) it's not a bad thing to have, even if you need it once a
year.

   Cheers

John

---

From: John Lawson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:30:38 2003

> a variety of lists including the CBM Hacker's list and here.  I don't

   After you've identified the proper replacement gear, try the folks at
McMaster Carr Supply Company.  www.mcmaster.com They have a huge selection
of off-the-shelf gearing, and are happy to sell you one piece or one
box-car full.  They have a big, very cool catalog, and you'll find it in
every machine shop and facilities department on the planet, with good
reason.

Cheers

John

---

From: John Lawson <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:31:04 2003

Damn - forgot this until just after I hit 'send' on the last message: the
Central Hive of all things gear-related is at Boston Gear,
www.bostongear.com  They include some very nice and detailed tutorials to
help you find the part you're looking for.

  Cheers

John

---

From: "Jeffrey S. Worley" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:31:17 2003

Why is cannibalizing the new printers not an option?  If you can replace
the whole mech with a new one for $19.00 or so, why not do that?  Is it
that the gears once installed are damages by de-installing them?  I can
see how that could be.

Regards,

Jeff

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Ethan Dicks
Sent: Friday, April 18, 2003 11:23 AM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Re: Wanted: TRS-80 PC-2 Pocket Computer Plotter pens

Thanks,

-ethan

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:31:28 2003

>too long ago that the things seemed to be made of unobtanium.

They're darn hard to find.  The real shock was when I found one in a brand new computer room that I *KNOW* for a fact doesn't have any RRD40 drives in it, and neither did the computer room that the equipment was moved from, or the one before that one!  I still wonder where on earth that caddie came from.

A year or so ago I managed to find a bare drive from the original manufacturer, still in the box, and with a caddie!  Now that was a shock!

Those two cases are in addition to the RRD40 and Caddie that I bought from Jim Willing a few years ago.

>away a caddy: You couldn't pry my RRD40 caddies from my cold dead

Ditto.

		Zane

-- 
--
| Zane H. Healy                    | UNIX Systems Administrator |
| [email-masked] (primary)    | OpenVMS Enthusiast         |
|                                  | Classic Computer Collector |
+----------------------------------+----------------------------+
|     Empire of the Petal Throne and Traveller Role Playing,    |
|          PDP-10 Emulation and Zane's Computer Museum.         |
|                http://www.aracnet.com/~healyzh/               |

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:31:54 2003

--- "Jeffrey S. Worley" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> Why is cannibalizing the new printers not an option? 

It is, but not a long-term one.

> If you can replace the whole mech with a new one for $19.00 or so...

$4 when I got them.

> ... why not do that? 

Because most of the mechs had bad gears, too.   So far, my total
count of working gears is very close (+/- 1) to the number I need
to keep the plotters I own working.

At some point, I will not have enough gears.  As it is, I spent a wad
of money to buy a pile of spare parts with about 3 good gears.  :-(

> Is it that the gears once installed are damages by de-installing them? 
> I can see how that could be.

No, but plotters that once had good gears, now have bad gears.  They
fail.  Perhaps it's thermal expansion problems, perhaps it's stress,
but these gears do not last.  The material is so thin at the bottom
of the splines that they develop a longitudinal crack along them.

As other have said, perhaps it's a poor choice of materials or perhaps
it's a poor match of shaft diameter to gear I.D., but for whatever
reason, it's a common problem to this plot engine.

-ethan

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:42:17 2003

> the complete title of a book I could go to the Library Reference

That is the title... It's a thick reference book (over 1000 pages IIRC) 
that includes just about every useful table for mechanical engineering -- 
thread cutting, gears, etc. I found an old copy (1943 IIRC) for \pounds 
1.00 in a second-hand bookshop. The problem with a copy that old is that 
it doesn't include things like standard metric screw threads. On the 
other hand the information that is there is still valid, at least for the 
sort od engineering I do.

It's like old copies of the 'rubber bible' (the CRC Handbook of 
Chemistry and Physics). The last few figures of some of the constants may 
well have chnaged by now. But I can't work to that accuracy at home :-)

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat Apr 19 13:42:29 2003

> Why is cannibalizing the new printers not an option?  If you can replace

2 good reasons...

1) There's not an unlimited supply of 'new' plotter mechanisms 

But more importantly 

2) These gears fail in storage anyway. I think it's from the stressed 
caused by press-fitting them onto the motor spindle -- they crack 
longtitudinally between the teeth. For example, my CGP115 was OK when I 
packed it away. When I got it out again a year or so later, one of the 
gears had failed. Now I think both are broken.

-tony

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 23 13:04:28 2003

> > These would also work in a IIgs wouldn't they?
> 
> Probably, but you don't need one for a ROM 03 IIgs -- they have built-in
> boot-over-LocalTalk support.

I wish I had a ROM 03 IIgs, but then I also wish I had room to have my IIe
and IIgs setup.  Unfortunatly all my Apple II stuff is in storage. :^(

		Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 23 13:04:43 2003

> --- "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > Would you believe I actually got a IIgs with one of these in it, and the
> > mouse? 
> 
> The IIgs has ADB ports, yes?  Why would you want an old mouse card
> then?

I have a theory about this.  Was the ADB mouse an additional purchase?  My
guess is that whoever put it in there had the card and mouse from an old
system and rather than spending the money on an ADB mouse, put it into the
IIgs.  Either that or they had software which required it.

			Zane

---

From: "Robert F. Schaefer" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 23 13:06:27 2003

----- Original Message -----
From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2003 6:21 PM
Subject: Re: Apple II mouse (was Re: Two new Apple toys)

> IIgs.  Either that or they had software which required it.

Or a good salesman...

> Zane

Bob

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 23 13:15:34 2003

> I'm glad you can still get it from the thrifts for under $3, used not new
> like this one.
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3602578486

You know, I really should put my copy up on eBay, the shrinkwrap and box
aren't as perfect as that, but I could sure use the cash for some software 
upgrades for my Mac!

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:16:45 2003

> Also on a related note, where the heck can you find a scsi card for a IIgs
> that doesnt cost $50+?

You might try dropping these folks a line, and see if they still have any.
http://members.aol.com/webescsi/scsi/cie.html

It's been a few years since I got one from them, but I only payed $30 for
one, IIRC.

		Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:28:58 2003

> I think I am interested in these CDs.  I have a few questions though.  I
> apologize in advance for any "newbie" questions.  Can I use these CDs with
> E-11 or simh?  Also how many different CDs are you creating? (If you order 3
> are they all the same?)  Also, can you paypal?  (I would be willing to add a
> service charge if you can.)  Thanks for any answers you can provide.

I'm not sure about E11, but with SIMH, you should be able to 'dd' them to a
disk image, and access the RT-11 formated portion of the RT-11 CD from RT-11
and the ODS-1 formated RSX-11M/M+ CD from RSX-11M/M+.

I got copies of these when Tim first put them together, and I was able to
read both the RT-11 formated and ODS-1 formated one on my PDP-11/73 (under
the appropriate OS's).  

			Zane

---

From: Kevin Handy <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:49:42 2003

>read both the RT-11 formated and ODS-1 formated one on my PDP-11/73 (under

If you are using simh under Linux, you can just point to
"/dev/cdrom" and use them directly. No copying necessary.
Under Windows, this doesn't work, and you must make the
image file. Some CD burner software is able to do this
while under windows (like some versions of Nero).

---

From: "Andrew Strouse" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:51:12 2003

Sorry, this was meant to be off list.  I WILL get the hang of these
reply-to's.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andrew Strouse" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Friday, April 25, 2003 11:17 PM
Subject: Re: PDP-11 Freeware CDs for RSX-11 and RT-11 (Originally Produced
by Tim Shoppa)

> Andrew Strouse
> ( [email-masked] )
>
>
> From: "Jerome H. Fine" <[email-masked]>
> Sent: Tuesday, April 15, 2003 6:41 PM
> Subject: PDP-11 Freeware CDs for RSX-11 and RT-11 (Originally Produced by
> Tim Shoppa)
>
>
> > The last two times I posted this, another person contacted
> > me either for help or to request the CDs.  This will be the
> > last time for about 6 months unless more people reply.
> >
> > In regard to the Freeware CDs for RSX-11 and RT-11
> > that Tim Shoppa originally produced:
> >
> > I am in the middle of finishing a second (very small) batch
> > of CDs and could easily add a few additional copies.
> >
> > I will be making all copies of the CD images from:
> > ftp://ftp.trailing-edge.com/pub/cd-images/
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RSX-11/
> >
> > They are available at $ 5 / $ 9 / $ 12 for 1 / 2 / 3 CDs.

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:51:30 2003

>while under windows (like some versions of Nero).

That's new!  I'd tried this about a year ago and it wouldn't work.  Of course it could have been due to my hardware or OS.  I'll have to give this a try again.

		Zane

---

From: "Thompson Family" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed May 7 19:16:11 2003

My god legacy? Antiquity maybe. that is cool.
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Don Maslin" <[email-masked]>
To: "Nick Garnett" <[email-masked]>
Cc: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: Re: Working 8" Floppy drives???

> On Wed, 7 May 2003, Nick Garnett wrote:
> 
> > CCTech folks,
> >
> > Does anyone know the whereabouts of any working 8" floppy
> > drives?  I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy
> > system to keep on working while I revamp their whole
> > system.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Nick Garnett
> 
> I have some, Nick.  Specifically, what are they looking for and in
> what quantity?  SS or DS?  Full high or half high?
> 
> - don

---

From: "Nick Garnett" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:50:11 2003

CCTech folks,

Regards,
Nick Garnett

---

From: Don Maslin <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:50:18 2003

- don

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:50:21 2003

> system to keep on working while I revamp their whole

Have you considered substituting 1.2M 5.25" drives?
Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually work
as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes.

---

From: "Erik S. Klein" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:50:38 2003

I know that Herb Johnson usually has 8" drives for sale:

http://njcc.com/~hjohnson/s100.html

Good luck!

   Erik
   The Vintage Computer Forum
   www.vintage-computer.com/vcforum 

-----Original Message-----
From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]
On Behalf Of Nick Garnett
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2003 4:02 PM
To: [email-masked]
Subject: Working 8" Floppy drives???

CCTech folks,

Regards,
Nick Garnett

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:51:26 2003

--- "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > drives? 
> Once you make the appropriate cables and jumpering, they will usually
> work as a drop-in replacement, with NO software changes.

Serious question (not meant to merely contradict Fred), what would it
take to do that for an RX01 or RX02?  The drive mechanism itself in
a DEC 8" drive has no electronics - it's a motor, a head loading relay
(the drive motors spin whenever the unit is powered on, unlike modern
equipment), a couple of sensors and a head cable.  All of the "work" is
done on the board above the drives.

Even getting past electrical issues, one trick would be how to low-level
format the disks.

Among other reasons for doing it is that I have an RX01 that came from
a client with a siezed rotation motor on one drive and a siezed head
positioner motor (with attendant incinerated head motor driver
transistors) on the other drive.  Yes, I can repair the transistors and
move one good motor to the other mechanism, but it means that I have 1/2
of a full RX01.

-ethan
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:51:34 2003

On 2003.05.08 20:09 Ethan Dicks wrote:

> Even getting past electrical issues, one trick would be how to
> low-level format the disks.
There are RX01/RX02 compatible controllers with standard Shugart SA800
interface from third party vendors. I have one called MXV02. This
controller is able to format blank media. I had no 8" drive when I wrote
the NetBSD RX02 driver, so I connected a 5.25" drive with a self made
adapter cable, issued on the ">>>" prompt of my MicroVAX 4k200:
d/p/w 20001E78 9
d/p/w 20001E7A 92
(single density)
d/p/w 20001E78 109
d/p/w 20001E7A 92
(RX02 with ouble density)
and the controller started to format the disk. 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz/

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu May 8 23:51:45 2003

> done on the board above the drives.

There might be issues around matching the head's impedances etc to the
preamps and drivers on the RX01/2 electronics, and possibly even around
the step angle of the positioner, but nothing inssurmountable, I
suspect.

> Even getting past electrical issues, one trick would be how to
low-level
> format the disks.

Not too hard.  An RX01 floppy is a standard format; you could do it on
any CP/M machine that exepcted 8" drives but actually had a suitable
5.25" drive, or on a PC with a suitable FDC and suitable version of DOS
(or Linux, probably), or indeed on many other systems.  Once formatted
to single density (RX01) most DEC system can then "reformat" the disk
as RX02 (modified double density).

> move one good motor to the other mechanism, but it means that I have
1/2

I had a drive motor seize on my RX02.  It wasn't all that hard to free
the spindle, clean the bearings, and re-lubricate them.  It's running
fine now.  It's certainly worth a try.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu May 8 23:52:01 2003

> drives?  I have a client who needs a few to allow a legacy

Silly answer : Yes, I can see over a dozen of them without leaving this 
chair. Of course they're all in working computers systems...

> system to keep on working while I revamp their whole

Is it too late to point out that 8" drives can nearly always be 
_repaired_... I don't think I've ever had to replace a head in one 
(unlike 3.5" drives...). Most of the time a good clean and lubrication 
job helps a lot. Occasionally there are electronic problems, but the 
components are normally standard parts...

-tony

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu May 8 23:52:05 2003

> positioner motor (with attendant incinerated head motor driver

I am suprised about that. A stepper motor draws much the same current no 
matter whether it actually rotates or not, so the transistors shouldn't 
have been damaged...

IIRC, it's possible to remove the bearings from the stepper motor in the 
RX01 (circlips on the end), although you probably have to remove the 
motor from the drive, which means you need an alignment disk to put it 
back again. If the windings are still good, you can replace the bearings 
if necessary.

There were several spindle motors used. Some of them come apart easily 
(and can be cleaned, etc), the latest one, commonly used in RX02s, is 
almost impossible to take apart. Often, though, removing the plastic 
covers over the bearings and putting some machine oil (not Wanton 
Destruction 40, OK!) on the bearings will get it running again. If not, 
the spindle motor is fairly easy to substitute.

-tony

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:52:53 2003

I have a StorageWorks unit that's surplus to requirements.  It's a
floor-standing box, complete with the doors and keys, 2 PSUs, and some
"innards".  Can anyone tell me if all thse bits belong in the same
unit?

2 x SWXBP power supply
1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?)
1 x 70-32155-01 8-bit interface (SCSI?  or what?)
1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk
1 x TLZ06 DDS tape drive

It came wih a MicroVAX some time ago, but I've never used it.  Anybody
want it, for a suitably low price?

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:53:03 2003

> 1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?)
Sounds like a very nifty device that can turn a (bunch of) SCSI disk(s) 
into a (bunch of) DSSI disk(s). I.e. you connect a SCSI disk on one 
side and it presents a DSSI disk on a DSSI bus on the other side to a 
VAX. As DSSI disks are rare, especially with high capacity, this thing 
may be of some value.
-- 

tschüß,
           Jochen

Homepage: http://www.unixag-kl.fh-kl.de/~jkunz

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:53:31 2003

On May 10, 12:15, Jochen Kunz wrote:
>
> [ plain text
>   Encoded with "quoted-printable" ] :
> VAX. As DSSI disks are rare, especially with high capacity, this
thing

Oh.  Maybe I should investigate that.  Thanks, Jochen.  Anyone else
know any more about how it works (connections, etc)?  Anyone
desperately need one?

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:53:36 2003

On May 10, 20:00, Peter Turnbull wrote:
> "innards".

I should have mentioned it's a BA35X-MD box.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:53:55 2003

Strange question, how deep are the drawers in punch card cabinets, the tops are pretty much flush with the card aren't they?   I'm assuming I couldn't be lucky enough for them to be another 0.25-1 inch deeper.

			Zane

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Sun May 11 19:54:00 2003

On Sat, 10 May 2003, Jochen Kunz wrote:

> into a (bunch of) DSSI disk(s). I.e. you connect a SCSI disk on one side
> and it presents a DSSI disk on a DSSI bus on the other side to a VAX. As
> DSSI disks are rare, especially with high capacity, this thing may be of
> some value.

It also does RAID.  Like you can stripe a bunch of SCSI disks into one big
DSSI disk or sometihng like that.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:54:19 2003

>"innards".  Can anyone tell me if all thse bits belong in the same

Unless the HSD10 is pulling a LOT of power, you should be able to get by using just one of these, while having two gives you redundant power, I prefer to have the slot open for another device.

>1 x HSD10-AA DSSI-SCSI controller (what does this do, exactly?)

As mentioned, it lets you use SCSI devices on a MicroVAX with DSSI.

>1 x 70-32155-01 8-bit interface (SCSI?  or what?)

Does this plug into the end opposite the powersupplies?  It sounds like you've got a BA356 shelf.  If so, I'm envious, I've only got BA350's, the BA356 supports both 8-bit and 16-bit interface modules.  Oh, yes, if we're talking about the same thing, it's SCSI.  It's a High Density 50-pin connector, right?

>1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk

RZ29B-VW?

>1 x TLZ06 DDS tape drive

You have an SBB, with a TLZ06 in it?  Now I'm even greener with envy!  I've only got disks.  Plus, I don't have any of the nice enclosed models with doors.

>I should have mentioned it's a BA35X-MD box.

These are actually the fans on the back of the shelf.  The good news is they're the good dual-speed ones that support the 7200RPM drives.

>want it, for a suitably low price?

You might just want to keep it...  I really like using StorageWorks on my VMS systems.  I've got a BA350 attached to the PWS 433au I use as a server via a Narrow SCSI card. 

If you want, I should be able to dig up all the manuals on this, as I think I've got PDF's of them.

			Zane

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:55:49 2003

On May 10, 19:20, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Unless the HSD10 is pulling a LOT of power, you should be able
> to get by using just one of these, while having two gives you
> redundant power, I prefer to have the slot open for another device.

I'm fairly sure it was set up that way to have redundant power (from
two different sources).

> As mentioned, it lets you use SCSI devices on a MicroVAX with DSSI.

It has three connectors on the front; two 50-pin high-density
D-connectors (like SCSI-2 conectors) and an RJ11.  I assume those
50-way connectors are DSSI, and the RJ11 is for a terminal?

> Does this plug into the end opposite the powersupplies?  It
> sounds like you've got a BA356 shelf.  If so, I'm envious,
> I've only got BA350's, the BA356 supports both 8-bit and
> 16-bit interface modules.  Oh, yes, if we're talking about
> the same thing, it's SCSI.  It's a High Density 50-pin
> connector, right?

Yes, it is.  Two of them, in fact.  The module is in the top, inserted
from the front, same as everything else.  Ah, I guess you're thinking
in terms of a horizontal rack-mounted unit (the other one that the
VAXes had was mounted like that); this unit has the extra pieces for
floor mounting and (AFAIK) doesn't have the brackets for rack mounting.

Does it make sense to have both the 70-32155-01 SCSI interface and the
HSD10-AA DSSI/SCSI unit in the same shelf?

> >1 x RZ29B 4.3GB fast wide disk

RZ29B-VA, it says on the outside.

> >1 x TLZ06 DDS tape drive
>
> You have an SBB, with a TLZ06 in it?  Now I'm even greener with
> envy!  I've only got disks.  Plus, I don't have any of the nice
> enclosed models with doors.
>
> These are actually the fans on the back of the shelf.  The
> good news is they're the good dual-speed ones that support
> the 7200RPM drives.

Ok, so I shouldn't just dump it, then ;-)

To be honest, though, I don't think I want to keep it.  I have two
MicroVAXes, a uVAX-II in a BA23, and a uVAX 3100 (DV-31AT1-A, on the
label on the back).  Both have internal drives.  I'm not likely to use
either for anything serious, and I need the space the StorageWorks unit
is occupying.

> You might just want to keep it...  I really like using StorageWorks
on my VMS systems.  I've got a BA350 attached to the PWS 433au I use as
a server via a Narrow SCSI card.
> If you want, I should be able to dig up all the manuals on this, as I
think I've got PDF's of them.

I'll have another look round, where it came from.  They may still be
there.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:55:54 2003

On May 10, 19:00, Zane H. Healy wrote:
> Strange question, how deep are the drawers in punch card cabinets,
> the tops are pretty much flush with the card aren't they?   I'm
> assuming I couldn't be lucky enough for them to be another 0.25-1
> inch deeper.

Yes, they're not much bigger than they need to be, but maybe deep
enough for your purpose.  I have drawers from two cabinets, both
measure

    internal: 16 1/4"  x  7 5/8"    x  3 11/16"
    external: 17 5/8"  x  7 11/16"  x  3 3/4"

There's a vertical flange sticking up at one or sometimes both ends, to
stop the drawer being accidentally slid right out.  Iincluding that,
the overall external height is 4 1/16", but the aperture in the cabinet
will be just over 3 3/4".

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:56:28 2003

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 11 19:57:26 2003

>50-way connectors are DSSI, and the RJ11 is for a terminal?

I've never actually seen one, so without looking up the manual, I'm not sure.  There are a couple poeple on the list here that I think have them, to bad they've not commented.

>HSD10-AA DSSI/SCSI unit in the same shelf?

I'm wonderind if the HSD10 needs to be cabled to it, or if it is not used.  There is a third possibility, the shelf might be split into two segments, one acting as a DSSI device and one acting as Narrow SCSI

>RZ29B-VA, it says on the outside.

OK, you've got a Narrow 4.3GB disk, not wide.  The BA356 shelf, which is what I'm sure you've got based on the 8-bit personality module, can use either Narrow or Wide devices.  The BA350 doesn't use personality modules.

>Ok, so I shouldn't just dump it, then ;-)

No.  If you weren't on the other side of the pond, I'd offer you something for it, but I fear what just shipping on the everything would be, even if the powersupplies and disks were left out!

>either for anything serious, and I need the space the StorageWorks unit

If you got the cabling sorted out, it would be an excellent 2nd disk and backup device for the 3100 (minus the DSSI converter).  Actually if you pulled the DSSI converter it should work on one of your other systems such as your SGI Workstation.

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:23:33 2003

> > True, but I doubt that Hans or any of the rest of us are planning on
> > trashing the originals after they've been copied.
> 
> Maybe not on this list, but I have seen it happen far too often 
> elsewhere. People think the latest/greatest storage media must be more 
> reliable that something that's rather more ancient... 

For some of the stuff I'm copying to more modern media, I have to keep the
originals, even if it becomes unreadable, in order to be legal.

In some cases I've had to archive the original material, and then reuse the
original Media (RL02's come to mind).

> > I think the thing to remember is, just because you've transferred
> > something from original media to "modern" (for the moment) media, you
> > aren't off the hook forever.  Those same copies will have to be
> > copied to "modern" media at some point in the future.  Depending on
> 
> I would never want to rely on this happening, simply because it won't 
> always happen. People forget, or they assume tbat nobody will ever what 
> 'that old file'. And then it's lost for ever.

I'm trying the following with my archive of DEC stuff.

1. I have the archive on my fileserver (I prefer keeping copies on two
different spinning hard drives).
2. I have two backup copies, one I keep, and one my parents keep.
3. I update #2 when additions are made to #1, keeping the previous backups.

			Zane

---

From: "Jerome H. Fine" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:23:46 2003

>"Zane H. Healy" wrote:

> original Media (RL02's come to mind).

Jerome Fine replies:

However, if you retain the original Media, then you can always
copy the original material back to the original Media if that ever
becomes necessary and there will never be a problem - although
I presume that the CIA could figure it out if they ever wanted to.

> 3. I update #2 when additions are made to #1, keeping the previous backups.

I have also added one additional aspect to saving RL02 images
when I want to keep a backup in RT-11.  Since the maximum
size of an MSCP device is 32 MBytes and an RL02 image is
10 MBytes, ONLY 3 will fit into one MSCP device.

HOWEVER, I really can't see any point in keeping a full RL02
image when in many (most) cases, the latter portion of an RL02
image is all zeros - especially when an RL02 was used as a
distribution media.  In RT-11, that adds a lot of useless blocks.
The solution I have used is to retain ONLY the blocks with useful
information and discard all the blocks filled with zeros starting with
block 20449 and working backward until a non-zero block is
encountered.  In many cases, this means that I am able to put
between 15 an 20 RL02 images into one MSCP  RT-11 partition
without any loss of information.

One other suggestion for those who are saving the RL02 images
to a CD.  Make the total number of blocks saved an exact multiple
of 4 blocks - on a CD, every new file starts on a sector boundary.
This suggestion is very useful when the following paragraph is
considered.

Also for a CD, I am able to set up an RT-11 file directory for at
least RT-11 partition zero for all of the files copied to the CD
under the ISO9660 file structure.  I am attempting to find a simple
way to do the same for files that are in non-zero RT-11 partitions
on the CD, but thus far have not been very successful.  However,
as long as the total size of all the files saved to the CD is less than
300 MBytes, there is no problem in duplicating the files and copying
then to RT-11 partitions at the end of the CD.  Tim Shoppa did this
with the RT-11 Freeware CD.

It is also possible to produce an RT-11 bootable CD using a DSK
file that is totally in RT-11 partition zero which was originally placed
in the CD under the ISO9660 file structure - assuming that the DSK
file contains a set of RT-11 bootable files that can run using an MSCP
controller - since I don't know of any CDROM drives on a real DEC
PDP-11 that are not SCSI.

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine
--
If you attempted to send a reply and the original e-mail
address has been discontinued due a high volume of junk
e-mail, then the semi-permanent e-mail address can be
obtained by replacing the four characters preceding the
'at' with the four digits of the current year.

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:26:57 2003

> Wonder if Storageworks ever offered
> an SDI/RA* series converter?

Now that would be nice!  Unfortunatly to the best of my knowledge they
didn't.  Something like that would be nice for my MicroVAX III.

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri May 16 10:40:17 2003

> What is a BBS?

You're joking, right?

BBS = Bulleten Board System

Before the Internet was publically accessable, most people that were online
were either using a commercial service such as Compuserve, or BBS's.  Some
BBS's were free, others charged for access.  There were even "Networks" of
BBS's such as Fidonet that shared email and message boards.  Everything was
done via dialup, often with very slow modems.

		Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 18 02:22:12 2003

> TeoZ asks:
> > When does a hobby turn into an obsesion or compulsion? 
> 
> Taken from Christine Reilly, Institute for Research on Pathological 
> Gambling, Harvard Medical School   http://www.hms.harvard.edu/doa
> (As per NPR, abbreviated)
> 
>    Symptoms of addiction
>       o Crave it.  Obsessive thinking about the activity.
>       o Continued involvement despite adverse consequences
>       o Increasing levels to get the same satisfaction
> 
> Relating an experience I had for 24 hours once with 
> painkillers for a broken leg I would add:
> 
>       o Gradual replacing of satisfaction with irritability.
> 
> Good source material for the subject: 
> the book "Terminal Man".  No joke.
> 
> John A.

The question is, how many people have taken the time to consider how
unhealthy the Classic Computer hobby actually is.  Personally I have serious
admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it.

While I've managed to limit the "Classic Computer habit" to basically DEC
gear, I still have a massive pile of 8-bit Micro's and other non-DEC Junk. 
All told, I've got about 1 1/2 10x10 storage units full of computer junk.

Overall, I really need to start figuring out how to unload most of it.  At 
times I wonder if the smartest thing to do wouldn't be to simply call in a
Scrapper I know.  The problem is, I'd really like to recover some of the
money that I've sunk into the Hobby.

BTW, if anyone in the vicinity of Portland, Oregon is looking for stuff, let
me know.  I'm to the point where I'd like to get rid of most all of the
non-DEC stuff that I've got.

			Zane

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 18 02:22:22 2003

We all wish him the best of luck in whatever he attempts, even it is
leaving cold turkey.

> . . . 
And don't forget the component of denial.

'course that doesn't apply to me; I can quit collecting any time that I
want.

---

From: "R. D. Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 18 02:24:19 2003

> admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it.

Brilliant!  If some of us can actually convince enough others of that,
there will be more classic computers for us to acquire! ;-)

-- 
Copyright (C) 2003 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
[email-masked]  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun May 18 02:25:59 2003

> admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of it.

Me, for one.

Through hard experience I've learned that in times when I don't have any
money to buy gas, that's the times when I do not dare step foot in a
thrift store or go to a hamfest to look for stuff.  So I've managed to put
it under some control.

Also, there comes a time where you either have to give it up, because you
know its going to master you the larger it grows, or you master it by
making it work for itself.

I chose the latter ;)

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: "Ernest" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon May 19 10:05:19 2003

> From: [email-masked] [mailto:[email-masked]]On
> Behalf Of Zane H. Healy
> Sent: Friday, May 16, 2003 5:46 PM
> Subject: Re: Leaving the hobby

> unhealthy the Classic Computer hobby actually is.  Personally I
> have serious admiration for people like Jeffrey Sharp who just get out of
it.

I certainly have. I don't think that collecting ordinary things, by nature,
is unhealthy but I was becoming TOO obsessed with it, and that's not a good
thing. Fortunately for me, (in an awful sort of way)the economy hit my
pocket book pretty hard, and I was forced to curtail my collecting habit. I
was unemployed for nearly 6 months, and that goes a long way towards helping
a person discover the true priorities in his life.

Another positive that came out of an otherwise rough time was that I had the
time and focus to "clean house" in many ways. I got rid of a lot of stuff,
and not just old computer junk. I cleaned out my book, music, and movie
collections. I donated a bunch of old clothes and furniture. I even had the
carpet steam cleaned. I pretty much touched every item in my home, and asked
myself if I really needed (or wanted) to keep it. If I didn't, I got rid of
it. It was a very healthy and liberating experience for me.

As for my computer collection, I got rid of almost all of it. Again, I
picked up each item and asked myself two questions:

1. Do I really need this?
2. Can I easily replace it if I want it again later?

Most of the stuff only required about two seconds of consideration, and out
it went. Some items required more thought but just about everything is gone
now, and the truth is, I really am OK without it. LOL. The only things that
I decided to keep were a Morrow MD3 (and all of it's documentation,) a
Valiant Turtle Robot, an Amstrad PC1512, and all of my Apple II clones. The
best part is that I was able to find new homes for almost all of it, and I
was even able to make a little money in the process.

I feel great about my computer collecting hobby now. I have fewer annoying
projects to get around to. My collection is neat and organized. I have space
to live in again, and my hobby is so focused now that I won't need to worry
about it getting out of hand again. I only collect Apple II clones.

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat May 24 19:15:33 2003

Jay West wrote:
> Zane wrote..
> > I've run RT-11 and XXDP (Diag's) on my /44.  Ideally I'd like to get it up
> > and running with RSTS/E (an OS I think Jay would like), but I don't need to
> > worry about that at the moment as don't have access to it (Oh, well, my /73
> > is configured better)
> 
> I find RSTS (at first blush) a little obtuse. Maybe I haven't dug into it
> enough. But RT-11 with TSX+? That I LOVE!

Strange, I'd have figured that the strong BASIC nature of the OS would
appeal to you, given some of the HP stuff you mess with.  OTOH, when you
throw in the RSX and RT-11 runtimes, it does get a little unusual, but
that's part of what makes it appealing to me :^)

			Zane

---

From: "Stuart Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 09:39:26 2003

Does anyone have a couple (2) of the AMP 10 pin connectors (with unused pins)
used with the DLV-11J 4 port serial I/O boards or know where I could purchase
them?

What I actually need is a RS232 cable DB25 to AMP 10 ?, but I am willing to
make the DB25 part myself, something I've done zillions of times.

I am currently working on bringing up my "new" PDP-11/23 that I recently
picked up. This chassis, once verified OK, will be used as a test bed to check
out the bunch of QBUS boards I have, including CPU's, memory, and some I/O,
mostly serial. Eventually I hope to bring up a 11/53 like the one Jonathan
Engdhal built.

Thanks in advance!
Stuart Johnson

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 09:53:52 2003

On 2003.06.03 02:16 Stuart Johnson wrote:

> Does anyone have a couple (2) of the AMP 10 pin connectors (with
> unused pins) used with the DLV-11J 4 port serial I/O boards or 
> know where I could purchase them?
Aren't this very common 10 pin IDC connectors? At least on my DLV-11J
clone from Sigma Systems. I used the usual 10 pin crimp connectors for
ribbon cable to make the cables. 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

---

From: "John A. Dundas III" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 16:11:52 2003

Stuart,

>ribbon cable to make the cables.

I have a -J that I'd like to make work and I don't have cables either.  I
might get a chance to try Jochen's suggestion this weekend, but not before.
If you find a solution, please post.

Thanks,

John

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jun 3 16:12:20 2003

> might get a chance to try Jochen's suggestion this weekend, but not

I have used both 10-pin IDC headers _and_ the old, black Berg headers
with the individual crimped pins.  Given that the pins are on the order
of $0.45 each and the crimper is somewhat expensive, unless you plan
to make hundreds of connectors, you are probably going to want to go
with 10-pin ribbon cable and IDC connectors.

I don't know the brand names, but DEC used dark-blue and grey IDC
connectors, while the ones I saw commonly available were sky blue.
T&B?  

I can't direct you to a source, unfortunately; I haven't bought any
in over 10 years.

-ethan

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:30:07 2003

> --- jamesd <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > Hi new to list... just won a SUN 4/690mp... 
> > 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=3027472460&category=11216&rd=1
> 
> Wahoo!

Not quite my reaction after looking at what he got, mine is OUCH!  My
advice, ask the seller how much he'll charge you to keep it.  Do you realize
how big and HEAVY that stuff is?!?!  OTOH, if you did realize what you were
bidding on, congrantulations, you got it for a killer price :^)

What can I say, big Unix boxes for hobbyist use scare me, I'd much rather
have a nice small modernish 2-4 processor Unix workstation.

			Zane

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:30:22 2003

On Tue, 3 Jun 2003, Zane H. Healy wrote:

> What can I say, big Unix boxes for hobbyist use scare me, I'd much
> rather have a nice small modernish 2-4 processor Unix workstation.

Not really the big UNIX boxes that scare me.  It's more the pre-1960 giant
mainframes that scare me.

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:30:32 2003

> If you find a solution, please post.

Most of the cables I've seen on these were made up using 2x5-way Berg
connectors and individual Bergcon crimp pins.  You can still get them,
but the pins are horrendously expensive in small quantities.   However,
lots of other manufacturers now make similar conectors (two rows, on a
0.1" pitch (2.54mm not 2.5mm)).  I've used ones made by Molex (C-Grid
III 90142 series, cut off the polarising lug) and Harwin (M20-1071000).
 Those numbers are from a quick glance at a catalogue so check them
before you buy a whole lot!  Tyco/Amp make something similar, 87456-6
is a 2x5 way housing with various gold-plated or tinned crimp pins to
fit.

I get mine from Farnell in the UK, but I'm sure you'd be able to get
something from any of the usual US suppliers.

BTW, if you make up your own DLV11-J cables, don't forget the shorting
link or it won't work reliably (if at all)!

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:30:35 2003

Hello people.  Is there any way to tell if a backplane is QQQQ or QQCD by
looking at it, and without having to pull the backplane out of the
chassis?  What if I can find the model number of the chassis?

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:30:44 2003

--- Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]> wrote:
> connectors and individual Bergcon crimp pins.

AFAIK, the connectors for a DLV11-J are 2x7-way... There are only nine
pins (one is missing for keying), but the extra bits help you center
the connector.  2x5 will work, if you don't miss.

> You can still get them, but the pins are horrendously expensive in small
> quantities. 

No kidding.  One other "problem" is that you need to stock one set of
pins for small connectors (like the DLV11-J) and another set of pins
for large connectors (like an RL8A - 40 pins) because there are different
mating forces.  Yes, you can use the "wrong" pins, but they were spec'ed
different for a reason.  "Weak" pins in a small connector might not
grab enough to stay in well enough, and "strong" pins in a large connector
might be too difficult to insert.

Given that mostly, I need to make serial cables (BC01V for the PDP-8,
as well as DLV11-J-style PDP-11 cables), I need to find a source of
"weak" pins that is less than 2/$1.00.  Fortunately, I have the crimper.

For small quantities of cables, I still recommend the IDC connectors.

-ethan

---

From: Andreas Freiherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:31:00 2003

Stuart,

the main difference is that the original connectors (and pins) contain a 
locking mechanic that prevents the plug from sliding out when you pull 
on the cable. To release the lock, you grab the connector housing and 
pull, with no pull at the cable.

If you don't need the lock feature, regular 10-pin connectors are just fine.

Andreas

--
Andreas Freiherr
Vishay Semiconductor GmbH, Heilbronn, Germany
http://www.vishay.com

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:31:17 2003

> the connector.  2x5 will work, if you don't miss.

No, the DEC spec says 2x5.  The connectors are AMP connectors; the ones
on the DLV11-J itself are 87272-8 and the ones on a BC21B cable (for
example) are 87133-5.  You can fit a Bergcon 2x7 if you push hard, but
it distorts the shroud slightly.  All the cables I've ever seen,
including original DEC, are 2x5 housings.  If the key is in place, you
can't really miss.

> might be too difficult to insert.

Well, that's not "weak" and "strong" by design, it's for different
sizes of square pins, or for round pins.  Yes, I agree, don't use the
wrong ones!

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:31:38 2003

> including original DEC, are 2x5 housings.  If the key is in place, you

I have some DEC loopback connectors that are 2x7, complete with DEC
label tywrapped to the wire... I'll get a part number.  I figured the
real DEC cables used the same connector housing.
 
> sizes of square pins, or for round pins.  Yes, I agree, don't use the

According to the specs I read, there's different insertion forces
for different models of pins - spring tension in the pin body itself.
Now... there _are_ different models for different size/shaped pins,
but that's in addition to designated spring force.

-ethan

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Jun 5 08:31:51 2003

> for different models of pins - spring tension in the pin body itself.

So there are -- three different ones in fact, though only on one
series, mainly to accomodate large differences in the number of
contacts per housing, as you said.  Despite using the catalogue from
time to time, I'd not appreciated that before.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:21:25 2003

--- [email-masked] wrote:
> chassis?

Not from the slot-side... all the connectors look exactly the same.

Well... not _visually_  You could sit down with a VOM or a continuity
tester and probe a couple of selected pins to determine the wiring
scheme.  In practice, though, it's ordinarily done by other means.

In some older chassis, you can see the backplane wiring, but not on
boxes like the BA23 or BA123.

>  What if I can find the model number of the chassis?

That's useful... The model numbers that look like BA-23, BA-11N, BA-11M,
etc., are the ones you want.

Also, remember in newer boxes, it's three slots of Q22-CD, with the rest
Q22-Q22.  Older boxes can be wired for either 18-bit or 22-bit addressing,
which may or may not involve Q-CD slots.  I _think_ the BA-11N is a 18-bit
Q-CD box... that's what I remember my 11/23 is in (but I added the extra
wires some time ago to make it Q22).

-ethan

---

From: Andreas Freiherr <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:22:10 2003

Hello Sridhar,

yes, if you can see the traces, you can tell from the shape: CD 
interconnect consists of point-to-point leads from one slot's A side to 
the next one's B side, which should look quite different from Qbus, 
which (except for few grant or other daisy-chained signals) consists of 
bused connections between "same" pins (A side of one slot to A side of 
next slot).

If you cannot inspect visually, your continuity checker is your friend.

Layout of Q vs. CD slots may be different between DEC and third-party 
backplanes even if both are, say, 4*9 shape, beware...

Andreas

---

From: "Antonio Carlini" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:22:49 2003

> Also, remember in newer boxes, it's three slots of Q22-CD, 
> with the rest Q22-Q22.  Older boxes can be wired for either 

IIRC that's true of the BA23 but the larger BA123 is four slots 
of Q-CD and then serpentine Q-Q.

The even newer BA200 series (BA213/BA214) and probably everything
after that (which is mostly just the BA400 stuff) is AFAIK all
Q-CD.

Antonio

-- 

---------------
Antonio Carlini             [email-masked]

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:23:51 2003

On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote:

> > Also, remember in newer boxes, it's three slots of Q22-CD, with the
> > rest Q22-Q22.  Older boxes can be wired for either
>
> IIRC that's true of the BA23 but the larger BA123 is four slots of Q-CD
> and then serpentine Q-Q.
>
> The even newer BA200 series (BA213/BA214) and probably everything after
> that (which is mostly just the BA400 stuff) is AFAIK all Q-CD.

Are you sure? I believe my BA215 has at least 5 Q-CD slots (well, I think
anyway) as I have the cpu board and 4 memory boards in it. Come to think
of it, don't these only have 6 slots?

-Toth

---

From: "Antonio Carlini" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:24:00 2003

> > IIRC that's true of the BA23 but the larger BA123 is four slots of 
> > Q-CD and then serpentine Q-Q.
> >
> > after that (which is mostly just the BA400 stuff) is AFAIK all Q-CD.
> 
> anyway) as I have the cpu board and 4 memory boards in it. 
> Come to think of it, don't these only have 6 slots?

Sure about which bit? I'm reasonably sure that the BA123 (old style
world box most often used for the MicroVAX II) is four slots of
Q22-CD and then serpentine Q22-Q22. I'm fairly sure the BA23 (smaller
box, same size as the Rainbow) has one less Q22-CD slot (hence it has
3).

I'm sure that the BA200 series boxes are all Q22-CD, and the BA200
Series Module Design Guide agrees with me there. In fact, I think
you were agreeing with me too, unless you meant BA123 where you typed
BA215.

Antonio
 
-- 

---------------

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:24:34 2003

On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote:
> > Are you sure? I believe my BA215 has at least 5 Q-CD slots (well, I
> > think anyway) as I have the cpu board and 4 memory boards in it.
> world box most often used for the MicroVAX II) is four slots of Q22-CD
> and then serpentine Q22-Q22. I'm fairly sure the BA23 (smaller box, same
> size as the Rainbow) has one less Q22-CD slot (hence it has 3).
>
> Series Module Design Guide agrees with me there. In fact, I think you
> were agreeing with me too, unless you meant BA123 where you typed BA215.

No disagreement, I just misread your comments.

The only major issue I've had with the BA215 is the lack of slots. I guess
a BA213 might suit me better, but I haven't been able to obtain one just
yet. By the time I maxed out the ram with 4 boards and installed a TK70
controller, all the slots in my BA215 were gone :)

Since we are on the subject of VAXen...

What would be the most likely problem with a BA123 MicroVAX II that powers
up, but sometimes totally locks up during the diagnostics? (I'm not even
sure it can boot, as some of the RD53s sound a little sick.) I've pretty
much eliminated the boards as the cause, and the only things left are the
backplane and power supply. It does have those older power supply to
backplane wiring harness cables, which I guess I need to replace before I
put many boards in the card cage.

-Toth

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:24:47 2003

> rest Q22-Q22.

That's true for a BA23 (3 slots plus 5), but in a BA123 it's four Q-CD,
eight Q-Q, and the thirteenth slot is not bussed at all.

> Older boxes can be wired for either 18-bit or 22-bit addressing,
> which may or may not involve Q-CD slots.  I _think_ the BA-11N is a
> 18-bit Q-CD box... that's what I remember my 11/23 is in (but I
> added the extra wires some time ago to make it Q22).

Yes, a normal BA11-N is Q-CD.  So is a BA11-S.

If you can read the H92xx number off the backplane (it's often visible
without too much effort, for example it's on the top of a BA11-M/N/S
backplane) you can look that up to see if it's straight (Q-CD),
serpentine (Q-Q) or mixed.

The following is not exhaustive, but includes the common ones:

PDP-11/03   BA11-M  H9270     18-bit  4 x Q-Q
PDP-11/23   BA11-N  H9273     18-bit  9 x Q-CD
                    H9275     22-bit  9 x Q-Q
PDP-11/23+  BA11-S  H9276     22-bit  9 x Q-CD
microPDP-11 BA23    H9278     22-bit  3 x Q-CD, 5 x Q-Q
                    H9281     18-bit  various sizes, only two slots
(AB)
microPDP-11 BA123   54-17507
                 or 70-22019  22-bit  4 x Q-CD, 8 x Q-Q, 1 x non-bus
                    DDV11     18-bit  9 x Q-Q, slots EF are separate

Q-Q backplanes are usually referred to as serpentine (or sometimes as
zig-zag), Q-CD as straight.  Serpentine slot order goes like this:

    slot 1  ---->  slot 2
                     |
                     V
    slot 4  <----  slot 3
      |
      V
    slot 5  ---->  slot 6

                    etc

Some of the backplanes have optional jumpers to enable/disable LTC
interrupt, or for termination.  Many carry the SRUN_L signal only on
row 1. Beware of such differences when changing backplanes or linking
two together.  The DDV11 is unusual in being hex-height instead of
quad-height; the extra slots are nor bussed, except for +5,V, 0V, and
-12V, but may carry odd voltages, depending on which OEM or
experimenter last used it!

There's a rumour that the first 3/4 slots in a BA23/123 are special and
you can't use them for anything except memory or processor; that's
rubbish, they're normal Q22-CD slots and you can put anything that's
Q-CD compatible in them, so long as it's after the processor.  What
*is* special is the range of PMI memory boards; if you put them in
*front* of a KDJ11-B they use the CD interconnect for the Private
Memory Interface
but if you put them *after* the CPU they use the Q-Bus like all other
memory boards.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: [email-masked]
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:24:52 2003

And what do you do if you want to use a QQQQ-only processor in a QQCD
backplane?  Put it in the QQQQ-end?

Peace...  Sridhar

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:24:56 2003

> box, same size as the Rainbow) has one less Q22-CD slot (hence it has
My BA23's and BA123's are like this, yes.

--fred

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:25:06 2003

> put many boards in the card cage.

Could be voltage drop between PSU and backplane, resulting in low
voltage on the cards.  Part of the problem with the harness (which was
discussed here some months ago, in a different context) is that parts
go high-resistance.  Check the voltage (especially the +5V) on one of
the cards.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:25:11 2003

> backplane?  Put it in the QQQQ-end?

I've never heard of a QQQQ-only processor.  Do you have one in mind?

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:25:53 2003

> I've never heard of a QQQQ-only processor.  Do you have one in mind?

OK, so I've just thought of one that might be.  An early 11/03
quad-height M7264 was meant for a Q-Q H9270 backplane and presumably
that's what Sridhar is thinking of.  However, I don't think it's what
he calls a QQQQ-only processor.

I'd have to look at the print set or a board to be sure, but IIRC the
M7264 actually has Q-Bus on its A&B slots, so it would be OK in a Q-CD
backplane, so long as the module underneath it didn't use the upper
contacts on its own C&D slots (C and D aren't bussed; the lower
contacts on C&D are only connected to the upper contacts of the slot
below).

However, just before I hit "send", Sridhar told me what he *was*
thinking of:

> Yeah.  DECsystem 5500.  (MIPSFAIR-2)  Chuch McManis told me it's
> QQQQ-only.  It normally fits into a BA430 which is a BA440 with no
> PELE stuff in it.  It uses out-of-band signaling (on ribbon cables)
> for RAM.

The short answer is "I don't know".  FWIW, here are my thoughts.  I
would be amazed if it put any signal(s) on the relevant pin(s) on
*both* the A&B and C&D slots (because that would lead to multiple
signal paths).  I'd be rather surprised if it put some on A&B and some
on C&D, but if it did, or if it put QBus signals on C&D, it would
definitely have to go in the first Q-Q row.  Or maybe the second,
something I saw about it suggests an I/O module is supposed to go in
front of it, and then the argument applies to the I/O module, really.
 However, the logical way to build such a board would be with the QBus
signals on A&B, like I believe the M7264 does -- unless the bus length
is critical, and it needs the shortest path between the first and
second rows, which is the C&D slots.  But would it physically fit any
other backplane than its own?  Don't those new-fangled things have
different handles to anything that fits a Q-CD backplane?

Chuck?

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: "Stuart Johnson" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 6 14:26:32 2003

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Stuart Johnson" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Sent: Monday, June 02, 2003 7:16 PM
Subject: AMP connector for DLV-11J

> mostly serial. Eventually I hope to bring up a 11/53 like the one Jonathan

Thanks everyone, for the input! Since I posted this I have had email from
someone that has some of these cables to sell and I will simplify my problem
by purchasing a couple from him. If I DO make any cables, I think I'll try
the IDC connectors.

Stuart Johnson

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:25:00 2003

On Thu, 5 Jun 2003, Peter Turnbull wrote:
> > What would be the most likely problem with a BA123 MicroVAX II that
> > powers up, but sometimes totally locks up during the diagnostics? (I'm
> > not even sure it can boot, as some of the RD53s sound a little sick.)
> > I've pretty much eliminated the boards as the cause, and the only
> > things left are the backplane and power supply. It does have those
> > older power supply to backplane wiring harness cables, which I guess I
> > need to replace before I put many boards in the card cage.
>
> discussed here some months ago, in a different context) is that parts go
> high-resistance.  Check the voltage (especially the +5V) on one of the
> cards.

I checked the voltages on the drive harnesses, and +5VDC and +12VDC seemed
to be within the normal variance. I'll see if I can't check +5VDC on some
of the boards too. I guess if that checks out ok, I'm to where I started,
thinking that there may be noise on +5VDC and/or +12VDC. Has anyone else
had similar problems with the BA123 power supply?

-Toth

---

From: "Antonio Carlini" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:26:27 2003

> I checked the voltages on the drive harnesses, and +5VDC and 
> +12VDC seemed to be within the normal variance. I'll see if I 
> can't check +5VDC on some of the boards too. I guess if that 
> checks out ok, I'm to where I started, thinking that there 
> may be noise on +5VDC and/or +12VDC. Has anyone else had 
> similar problems with the BA123 power supply?

What does the console output look like when it locks up?
 
-- 

---------------

---

From: Tothwolf <[email-masked]>
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:26:52 2003

On Fri, 6 Jun 2003, Antonio Carlini wrote:

> > I checked the voltages on the drive harnesses, and +5VDC and +12VDC
> > seemed to be within the normal variance. I'll see if I can't check
> > +5VDC on some of the boards too. I guess if that checks out ok, I'm to
> > where I started, thinking that there may be noise on +5VDC and/or
> > +12VDC. Has anyone else had similar problems with the BA123 power
> > supply?
>

It locks up during the diagnostics, most often during the memory tests.
I've managed to get it to go though to the point where it was ready to
boot a couple of times. It seems to get worse if I leave the system
powered up. I know its not the boards, since I've tried known good sets.

-Toth

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sat Jun 7 19:29:20 2003

> powered up. I know its not the boards, since I've tried known good sets.

As others have suggested, check the power lines _at the backplane or 
boards_. This really does sound like a power problem, but it might be 
something like a bad connection in the power harness which causes the 
voltage at the backplane to be too low, while the PSU output (and the 
voltage at the drives) is fine.

Also, if you have a 'scope (and if not, why not?), check for ripple on 
the power lines.

Have you checked the power fail lines (ACLO and DCLO)? Strange things 
happen when they get asserted at random...

-tony

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 15 17:34:50 2003

I have bought a Sun DWIS/S card to drop in an old SPARCstation and
hopefully talk to some differential SCSI drives.  What I can't
confirm is which kind of differential SCSI the card supports.  I'm
guessing that the absense of any information means that it's HVD
(which is not what I need right now).

The SunSolve page on the controller is at:

 http://sunsolve.sun.com/handbook_pub/Devices/SCSI/SCSI_DWIS_S.html

...to remove any ambiguity about what card I have coming.

Thanks for any illumination,

-ethan

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 15 17:35:47 2003

> Thanks for any illumination,

It's the original "ordinary" differential, not LVD and certainly not
LVD/SE.  In other words, what some people call HVD.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 27 20:41:14 2003

> Are there disk images of early versions of RT-11 available
> for use with the SimH simulator?  Like V02C and V03B.  (I
> think V03B was the last release of V3.)

They exist, but they aren't available.  There are holes in what is known to
still exist.  I'm not aware of any copies of V1 (was there even a V1?).  I
know that copies of both versions you mention are known to exist.

		Zane

---

From: "Jerome H. Fine" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 27 20:42:43 2003

Jerome Fine replies:

Prior to V5.00 of RT-11, DEC sent out patch files to
update the old versions - as far as I know.

Thus there may not have been exact definitions of releases
not on the major versions.  I am fairly sure that some files
for V02C and V03B exist, but it depends on if you want
a pure set of files for these two versions or just something
that works.

PLUS, is there a specific reason why you are asking about
versions from the 1970s?

I myself am attempting to find these old RT-11 distributions
so that they can be archived.  In particular, I would like
RK05 images so that they are one single file, but floppy
images will also be great.  In addition, even a directory
listing from an RK05 would then help, but please try to
include the VOLUME / OWNER information as well.

Some images of RT-11 distributions are at:
http://www.classiccmp.org/PDP-11/RT-11/dists/

Sincerely yours,

Jerome Fine

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 27 20:57:02 2003

> I didn't say it was rare. The seller did. I just thought it unusual.
> But perhaps not $299.00 unusual. I ran into some Z248's
> at NTC San Diego, and at the DRMO here in Norfolk, but I
> hadn't ever seen one of the Tempest Shielded ones yet.

Ditto.  I had to deal with them at three different commands.  None of them
were Tempest shielded.....  I take that back, I think one was.  The only
Tempest PC clone equipment that I really had any dealings with were ancient 
IBM PC's with dual 5Mb IOMEGA removable media drives.

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Jun 27 20:57:23 2003

> Can you toggle any line on any port (say one of the handshake lines on 
> the serial port (RTS, DTR) or one of the lines on a parallel port)? If 
> so, you could use it to drive a transistor and then a relay..

This is pretty much the kind of think that I had in mind, I'm sure I could
build it, I'm just not sure how.  At least the Sparc 5 I'm using has two
serial ports (one is the system console).

I've got to admit, I *REALLY* like Jay's idea of the APC Masterswitch,
unfortunatly they look to be a lot more than I'm wanting to spend :^(
Still, they would be *perfect*.

OTOH, your idea, coupled with the 16-port Serial box I've got for the
firewall could make an interesting setup.  Eight ports for switches, eight
ports for console cables :^)  Assuming of course my OS supports the box.

			Zane

---

From: "Dave Brown" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:24:32 2003

Try and find a secondhand Baytech RPC- lotsa models to choose from-check out
their website
http://www.baytech.net/cgi-private/product
DaveB
Christchurch, NZ

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:25:49 2003

> ports for console cables :^)  Assuming of course my OS supports the
box.

That's pretty much how I've done it in the past.  You could also use a
parallel port to drive several relays.

One slightly simpler method I've used is to employ a
photvoltaic/solidstate relay.  Something like the Omron GVM series will
switch 350VAC and currents of about 0.1A (which should be fine for your
modem), or the International Rectifier PVA2352N will switch 200VAC at
around 0.14A.  The Omron ones need about 10mA drive at 12V, the IR
types typically 5mA, so you can normally drive them directly from a
serial handshake line, and they come in a DIL package the size of an
8-pin device.   Cost about UKP6, so I guess about US$10 or so.  They're
MOSFET devices so they can be used to switch DC as well as AC.

There are some other devices that will switch a couple of amps, or even
more, and still only need 10mA drive, but they tend to be encapsulated
hybrids and take up more room.  They also tend to be thyristor or triac
units, so best restricted to AC.  I've never used them, but Crydom do
some devices at about the same price as the small Omron SSRs, except
they switch up to 5A with a control current that could be as low as
3mA; however they're bigger and use a triac.

One thing to think about is whether you want NO (normally open) or NC
(normally closed) operation.  Do you want the power turned off
(disabled) if the controller is powered down or removed?

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Tarsi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:27:46 2003

There are quite a few HOWTOs out here like this one:

http://www.linuxhq.com/ldp/howto/mini/Home-Electrical-Control/index.html

which basically drives a relay switch off of the parallel port of a Linux box.  
I built one of these and they work really nice.  After building it, I had it 
hooked up to the ||port of my webserver in my apartment.  I then had my 
Christmas lights plugged into it.  A Perl CGI script on my webserver allowed 
surfers to go and switch the lights on and off on demand.  Since I had a live 
webcam on the room as well, they could watch the room light up and go dark.

Went pretty well and was fairly entertaining until some jerk went and 
programmed a script to sit there and turn it on and off as fast as possible.  
That put an end to that.

Even if you're not a whiz with a soldering iron, it's easy to make.  Let me 
know if you need schematics and I'll try to dig my device out and write them 
down.

Tarsi

-- 
----------------------------
http://tarsi.binhost.com
http://www.foreverbeyond.org
http://www.binhost.com
----------------------------

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:29:28 2003

> programmed a script to sit there and turn it on and off as fast as possible.

Ah, you learned the hard way :)  You should've put controls into the
program that would require a certain interval between switches to prevent
this sort of thing.

--

---

From: Tarsi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:35:03 2003

> > programmed a script to sit there and turn it on and off as fast as
> > possible. That put an end to that.
>

Indeed, indeed.  And I thought about adding that in, but eventually decided 
that it was too much bother just for the entertainment value. :)

Tarsi

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:36:44 2003

> that it was too much bother just for the entertainment value. :)

You gotta admit, in hindsight it was probably pretty funny :)

--

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:38:08 2003

>which basically drives a relay switch off of the parallel port of a Linux box. 

Cool, this is the kind of thing that I'm looking for, now to try and figure out what would be required for it to work on a Serial Port...

		Zane

---

From: Tarsi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:40:31 2003

> > Indeed, indeed.  And I thought about adding that in, but eventually
> > decided that it was too much bother just for the entertainment value. :)
>

Yeah, just the mere fact that I completely didn't see that one coming, to come 
home one day to the lights doing this schitzophrenic dance.

Tarsi

---

From: Tarsi <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:40:50 2003

On Saturday 28 June 2003 22:28, Zane H. Healy scribbled:
> Cool, this is the kind of thing that I'm looking for, now to try and figure
> out what would be required for it to work on a Serial Port...

Why serial instead of ||port?

Anyway, it should be relatively the same.  You just raise a line to activate 
the relay, drop it to shut it off.  Pretty easy all in all.  I should still 
have my script somewhere for the ||port if you'd like it.

Tarsi

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Sun Jun 29 18:46:01 2003

> serial ports (one is the system console).

Try something like this : 

                         +------------------------+--------------o V+
                         |                        |          (To suit relay)
                        ---                    +------+
                IN4148   ^                     |\     |
                        /|\                    |  \   | Relay coil
                         |                     |    \ |
                         |                     +------+
                         |                         |
                         +-------------------------+
                                                   |
                                                 +-+
                     1k                        |/
     SIgnal   o-----/\/\/-----+------+---------|      2N3904
                              |      |         |\>-+
                             ---     /             | 
      Serial          1N4148  ^      \ 10k         |
      Or TTL                 /|\     /             |
      Port                    |      \             |
                              |      |             |
        Gnd o-----------------+------+-------------+----------- 0V 

'Signal' is any line you can turn on/off, such as RTS (or even TxD if you 
can send arbitrarily-long breaks). It can either be an RS232 signal, or a 
TTL one.

Choose the external PSU to suit the relay coil voltage. 

Connect the contacts of the relay to switch whatever you need to swtich. 
If possible, switch the low-voltage side of the PSU transformer (if the 
unit uses a wall-wart PSU, this is easy!).

-tony

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 9 18:37:15 2003

> I don't think this machine is *quite* 10 years old yet, but it's pretty 
> close -- and it's 'different' enough that hopefully I won't get flamed...

I'm not sure, but I think it's just over 10 years old, if not, as you say
it's pretty close.

> I have a DEC 3000 Model 300 AXP which is currently sitting idle -- it has 
> Tru64 Unix 5.0 on it currently, and 64Meg of RAM. I was thinking of putting 
> Alpha VMS 7.1 instead, for to start learning VMS again (someday... :-O ) 
> and I recall saying that Alpha VMS is much happier in more than 64M Ram, so 
> I was thinking of upgrading it.

You can run it in 64MB, but it isn't fun.

> I do know that it uses 'standard' 72-pin Parity FPM Memory - but what I 
> don't know is: how finicky is the machine? Will just any Parity memory 
> work, or is it limited to certain manufacturers? I have a supplier that has 
> used 32M Parity 72-pin FPM memory for $6/stick -- a decent price 
> comparatively - I've seen it at $30+ per stick, which would make a memory 
> upgrade cost more than the machine itself...

You're sure that it uses 72-pin?  I'm honestly not sure, I know that the
3000/300LX does, but the 3000/x00 (can't remember the exact model) that a
friend has sitting in my Living room till she finds a drive for it, uses
proprietary RAM.  Anyway, I've used various 72-pin FPM SIMMs in my Alpha's
and haven't had any problems that I can think of.  Which isn't to say that
you won't have problems.  The other question is, can it handle 32MB SIMMs,
and how many do you have to add at once?

BTW, 128MB is probably more than enough to just play.

> Should I take the chance and order the memory, or would it be foolhardy to 
> do so?

Do you deal with anyone that scraps PC's?  I'm using some RAM out of Pentium
Pro's in a couple of my Alpha's. 

			Zane

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 21:05:00 2003

Hi.

Can I use a RLV11 in a VAX 4000-400?

The pdp11-field-guide.txt says:
RLV11       RLV11       Q   RL01/02 disk controller option, consists of
RLV11                       modules M8013 and M8014.  Q/CD-only option.
RLV11                       18-bit DMA only.  Caution: uses BC1 and BD1
RLV11                       for purposes other than BDAL18 and BDAL19

The VAX 4000-400 has a 22 bit Qbus (all slots are Q/CD). So it looks
like this can't work due to the 22 bit bus that uses BC1 and BD1? 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 21:07:46 2003

>like this can't work due to the 22 bit bus that uses BC1 and BD1?

You need an RLV12.

		Zane

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 21:16:03 2003

> like this can't work due to the 22 bit bus that uses BC1 and BD1?

The best solution is to use an RLV12.  However I vaguely remember
seeing somewhere an ECO which involves cutting two tracks, to
disconnect the signals the RLV11 puts on the BC1 and BD1 fingers
(unless I'm thinking of some other device).  That fixes the electrical
problem, but whether you can find a VAX OS that knows to only use DMA
in the bottom 256K of memory is another matter.

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 21:22:00 2003

On Fri, Jul 11, 2003 at 08:13:01AM +0100, Peter Turnbull wrote:

> The best solution is to use an RLV12. 
Unfortunately I have no RLV12.

> However I vaguely remember
> (unless I'm thinking of some other device). 
I can see the two small lines going to BC1 and BD2 on the M8013.
Do you know what these signals are used for?
If I see this correct, they don't go to the M8014. They just put some 
signals onto the bus. So some sugery would solve the problem? 

> That fixes the electrical
This would fit to NetBSD. NetBSD uses only one softwareinterface 
for UniBus and QBus... 
-- 

tschüß,
         Jochen

---

From: Peter Turnbull <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 21:53:19 2003

> Do you know what these signals are used for?

(You mean BC1 and BD1, not BD2)

No, but it's nothing that's used in any normal system.  They don't
connect to the M8014, nor to anything a standard 18-bit system can
access (they're SSPARE4 and SSPARE5 bus lines, normally unused,
although the 11/03 and soe contemporary options did put odd signals
there).  My guess is they're for some manufacturing test, because a
quick perusal of the RLV11 Technical Manual didn't tell me anthing
either.

> signals onto the bus. So some sugery would solve the problem?

The M8013 I just pulled from one of my (22-bit PDP-11) systems has
those two tracks cut, and it's been working fine since I've had it
(almost 15 years).

If you hold the M8013 component side up, with the contact fingers
towards you, they're the two thin tracks in the shape of an inverted
"L" which come from the 15th and 16th contacts on the third set.
 They're cut about halfway between the contact finger and the corner of
the inverted "L".

I've had a look, but I can't find the ECO relating to this.  Either my
microfiche is too old (quite likely -- it only lists up to CS Rev F and
my RLV11 is Rev H) or I saw it somewhere like in one of the Micronotes
(which I no longer have, and sadly the ones available online are only a
fraction of the total issued).

> This would fit to NetBSD. NetBSD uses only one softwareinterface

Go for it...

-- 
Pete						Peter Turnbull
						Network Manager
						University of York

---

From: Jochen Kunz <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 22:33:01 2003

On 2003.07.11 20:06 Peter Turnbull wrote:

> > If I see this correct, they don't go to the M8014. They just put
> > some signals onto the bus. So some sugery would solve the problem?
> 
I did the cutting and it works. It looks like the NetBSD RL02 driver
suffers a bit from bitrot, but I was able to transfer data from and to
the disk. I didn't like the modification but I needed a quick solution
as I am using this VAX with a 9 track tape and the RL02 as exhibition
object at the BSD booth at the LinuxTag fair. It is really nice to see
the big eyes of these PeeCee folks when they look at this VAX with great
unbelive... :-) 
-- 

tschüß,
       Jochen

---

From: "Fred N. van Kempen" <[email-masked]>
Date: Sun Jul 13 22:35:47 2003

> the big eyes of these PeeCee folks when they look at this VAX with great

Yeah... kinda like their looks when I point at one of my walls,
and show them the DL11-E (with 1ft cable) ... that used to be
the console port of my mourned 11/10.  When I explain to the
gasping people that this ("whole thing") is "the serial port",
they tend to ask "so, how many terminals could you then connect
to that board?  8 or 16 or so?" *evil laugh*

--fred

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Jul 21 15:34:16 2003

> > There is one microcomputer I would love to have.  The Power Mac G5.
> 
> Me too. Need some bucks though, and a good excuse to dump the dual G4
> I already own. ;-)

Same here, I've finally gotten over my dislike of Mac OS X, and am *REALLY*
liking it.  Largely because it's got Unix underneath which means I can use
it both as my Mac and as my Unix box.  My G4/450 is one of the originals,
and finally starting to feel a little old and slow (not bad considering it's 
almost 4 years old).  Though my video card rocks, I bought an ATI Radeon
9000 for it :^)  It's really nice running all my Adobe App's, MS Office, and
Eudora on a system with Unix underneat!

I *REALLY* want a dual G5, unfortunatly I'm not going to be able to get a 
G5 anytime soon :^(  Still by the time I can get one they should be even
better :^)

			Zane

---

From: "Zane H. Healy" <[email-masked]>
Date: Tue Jul 22 21:24:24 2003

> HP 9122D floppy drive unit
> 
> Anyone have one they're willing to trade?
> 
> Jay West
> 

Maybe, what exactly is it?  Is it by chance an 8" drive with an HPIB
Interface?

		Zane

---

From: Frank McConnell <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 19:22:38 2003

> Maybe, what exactly is it?  Is it by chance an 8" drive with an HPIB

Dual 3.5" double-sided drive with HP-IB interface.

-Frank McConnell

---

From: Joe <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 19:24:18 2003

>Maybe, what exactly is it?  Is it by chance an 8" drive with an HPIB

   No, the 9122D is a 3.5" double sided floppy drive with two drives and a
HP-IB interface. It uses the same drive as the HP Integral, HP 9133 and
other combination drives. WARNING!  be carefull with them. The HP DS drives
have a tendency for the disk lifting mechanism to stick. Then the disk hits
to top head and bents it's mounts or rips the head off. If you have one
make sure that it opens fully! If it doesn't then don't try to remove or
install a disk or you WILL damage the head. You can take the drive out and
clean the old greaase off of it and regreae it with a GOOD Qualtiy grease
and it will work fine.

   The 8" drive with the HP-IB interface is a HP 9895. The older 8" drive
with the parallel inteface is a HP 9885.  FWIW some systems recognize the
9122 as being a 9895!

    Joe

---

From: "Jay West" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Jul 23 19:27:40 2003

It's a dual 3.5' floppy drive with an HP-IB interface.

Jay