Subject: Valuing classic computers, was re: eBay sniping

From: Hans B Pufal <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:35:34 2003

Vintage Computer Festival wrote:

> There has to be an objective value based on
> true scarcity (i.e. how many total units produced), not regional
> scarcity, and generally acknowledged historical and/or technical
> significance.  eBay prices do not generally reflect objective value.

Why does there have to be an objective value? There are far too many 
variables to provide any sort of meaningful value, you cite some such as 
regional scarcity etc but there are also others such as the physical 
state of the item in question, its configuration, what comes with it in 
terms of documentation etc, the availability of such documentation if 
not included with the item, transport costs, number of people interested.

All these factors play a role and that is why I think eBay prices DO 
reflect market value. eBay provides an almost perfect global marketplace 
and in such an environment prices will fluctuate around a "market value".

If you as a buyer feel the prices are too high then that simply means 
there are people around who consider the value of those items to be 
higher than you do. I might as well gripe about the exhorbitant prices 
charged for BMW cars, I might be willing to pay say $10,000 for one yet 
the "market" price can be as high as $100,000, does my griping change 
anything?

> I think Michael Nadeau's book made great strides towards this end, but
> refinement is still needed.

Not having had the opportunity to see a copy I cannot comment, but 
without denigrating his good work, I would question the real world 
relevance of any value placed on any particular machine at a particular 
moment in time.

> To be sure, prices for old computers will still not settle in the near
> future.

And probably never will, it is a fluid, ever developing market as items 
come up for sale and collectors join and leave the community.

   -- hbp

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From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Mon Apr 28 01:37:06 2003

> and in such an environment prices will fluctuate around a "market value".

And again, I disagree, precisely because of the way that eBay auctions
work, and the factors that can influence a final selling price.

However, I will say that as time goes on, and using eBay becomes a way of
life, the values will normalize somewhat, and I think we are seeing that
with certain items now.

> relevance of any value placed on any particular machine at a particular

As I mentioned previously, the relevance is in establishing a baseline
value upon which two people can efficiently trade.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

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From: Dan Wright <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 30 00:34:20 2003

> work, and the factors that can influence a final selling price.

No matter what anyone says, it remains a fact that eBay DOES determine a fair
market value of an item -- the value of that item on the eBay market :)  eBay
prices really have no relevance outside that scope, since any (most?) other
markets you'd be selling classiccmp items in (hamfest, local shop, etc) are
inherently local and/or specialized can't really be judged by the same
standards as eBay.  There can be more then one fair market value for
something, dependant on the market in question.  

This is why it's SO annoying to hear someone try to bargain at a hamfest by
saying "but I could get 10 times that on ebay!"

- Dan Wright
([email-masked])
(http://www.uiuc.edu/~dtwright)

-] ------------------------------ [-] -------------------------------- [-
``Weave a circle round him thrice, / And close your eyes with holy dread,
  For he on honeydew hath fed, / and drunk the milk of Paradise.''
       Samuel Taylor Coleridge, Kubla Khan

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From: Martin Scott Goldberg <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Apr 30 14:27:39 2003

>Dan Wright <[email-masked]> says:
>

This is something that the video game community has been grappling with
for some time as well.  More often than no however, the solution is to
form some sort of official price guide (which this list should consider)
based on a survey of Ebay prices.  Ebay still presents a valuable
resource, because it makes it much easyer to research selling prices of an
item than calling all over and trying to keep track of sales without the
net would be. Generally though, you want to report three prices in such a
listing - a high, low, and average selling price for the item.

>saying "but I could get 10 times that on ebay!"

I'm reminded of a story on the r.g.v.c. newsgroup of someone who came
across someone like that at an indoor flea market.  The seller was using
it to justify their rediculously high price.  The newgroup member had
their laptop (equiped with cellular modem) with and proceeded to pull up
an ebay auction for the item in question.  He then began to showing it to
people just outside the booth in question, in protest claiming the seller
was of course a scam artist.  The seller became irate, but security
wouldn't do anything about it since the guy wasn't breaking any laws
showing it to people.  He also was not in the guy's booth area.  The
seller quickly closed down his booth and went home "for the day".