Subject: Re: fair price for apple articles

From: chris <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:39:28 2003

>Apple //gs - $20 each

Wanna buy some from me?!? At that price I'll be happy to sell you a few.

>Apple //c new in box - $50

If it is really new in box, then yeah, I could agree with that price. But 
I have seen MANY things claimed as "new in box" that are really "we used 
it for 12 years, and before throwing it out realized we still had the old 
box so we repacked it". I have seen very few really new in box items, so 
I am sceptical to those claims.

>Mac Plus - $5
>Monitors - $5 each
>Misc. drives - $10
>"scads of software and manuals" - I'm assuming "scads" is worth about $25

I consider all of the above to be "Thanks" prices. ie: they really aren't 
worth anything, but you feel compelled to give the person something for 
being nice enough to save you the effort of digging thru the trash to get 
it.

In my opinion, Thanks prices don't really add up. Kind of like coupon 
actual value prices. Its worth $1.00 during the transaction, but if you 
add the value up, you find it is worth half a cent. So 10 monitors @ $5 
each would not equal $50, but rather maybe $10 if you were feeling good.

>Including a "new in the box" //c and "scads" of software?  That's what I
>would value most in the lot mentioned.

Got about 3 moving boxes full of assorted software just a few months ago. 
All that was headed to the dumpster (I intercepted it on the way). About 
half Mac, half PC. I also got 2 paper case boxes of IIgs software not 
much before that, probably 20 or so titles, most in their boxes. All free.

>> are large (20" monitors, and 10+ gig drives). The software and manuals,
>
>We're talking Apple ]['s here.  20" monitors and 10+ gig hard drives do
>not even come into the equation.

I went under the assumption that it could refer to Mac monitors and hard 
drives since there are Macs included in the list. Actually, now that I 
think of it, if we are talking about Apple II hard drives (regardless of 
size), then those are worth something as they are much tougher to find.

>That's where you are completely wrong and why you don't understand my
>pricing.  The software, as long as most of it is in original boxes with
>original disks, is the real prize.  Your opinion may vary on this of
>course, but the fact is that original software in the box is harder to
>find than the machines themselves.  And without the software and manuals,
>the computer is just a pretty object.

Yes, we differ here. You fit into the exclusion that I mentioned. That 
is, you care about having real copies of software. So to YOU the software 
might be worth something. There are lots of people like me that could 
care less about original copies, vs getting an "abondonware" copy off an 
FTP site or so. To people like me, software is of no real $$ value.

What's interesting here is I see your point with your pricing. You 
consider some items to be of value, that I don't. And vice versa (I find 
some value in a Woz IIgs). So it just goes to show, when pricing things, 
you can't rely on one source for info, and you should shop around to 
figure out the best place to market stuff. Maybe this is why eBay prices 
are always so high... with the wide audience, they increase the odds of 
hitting someone that lays value on the item.

And I'm still amazed that you would give a decent price. I had thought of 
you as a person that will always claim things are worth far less than 
they are just to keep prices down. I miss judged you... it must just 
really be a pure hatred of eBay instead. :-)

-chris
<http://www.mythtech.net>

---

From: Chad Fernandez <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:39:39 2003

chris wrote:
> I am skeptical to those claims.

I have a new in the box Imagewriter //, that I bought at Goodwill.  The 
shipping box looks bad, from water, and the interface cable is missing, 
but everything else is intact (unopened)....Super serial card, print 
cartridge, power cable, paper work.  The printer look perfect, and even 
has the plastic and tape on it still on it.

I was amazed when I figured out that it had never been used before.

Chad Fernandez
Michigan, USA

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:39:54 2003

> Wanna buy some from me?!? At that price I'll be happy to sell you a few.

No thanks.  I already have close to a dozen myself.

> I am sceptical to those claims.

Whether it is truly "new" in the box or just includes the original box
makes little difference, particularly in this case, since having the
original box for any old computer is not common.  It adds a certain
premium to the machine for those that value such things (as do I, mainly
since it definitely has historic relevance).

> being nice enough to save you the effort of digging thru the trash to get

Exactly.  Which is why my end price basically discounted these things from
the itemized pricing.

However, you are still undervaluing the software and manuals.  Assume they
had 20-25 original software packages consisting of games, applications,
utilities, etc.  Each had the original disks, manuals, and miscellaneous
inserts such as reply cards, warranty cards, etc.  I would say this
software is worth more than all of the computers combined.  However, this
is because I have all those machines in spades, but I am always in search
of original software packages that I don't have, and I'm sure there are
plenty out there that I don't.  So any software I find is always a good
find.

> each would not equal $50, but rather maybe $10 if you were feeling good.

Yes, again note the differential in my itemized pricing--$140--versus my
lot price--$100.

> much before that, probably 20 or so titles, most in their boxes. All free.

Congratulations.  That is quite a score.  However, the original question
was "what is a fair value for this stuff?"  It would not be reasonable to
say, "Oh, Chris just got three moving boxes worth of software for free, so
therefore I would value that portion of the lot at $0."

> size), then those are worth something as they are much tougher to find.

The lot included a Mac Plus.  Even if it did have an external hard drive,
it would likely be a 20 or 40 megger.  I was also assuming that the hard
drive was for the Apple ][, but that much is not at all clear.  Either
way, it evens out.

Yes, Apple ][ hard disk systems are not that easy to come by.

> FTP site or so. To people like me, software is of no real $$ value.

Ok, to each his own, but the point of collecting computers is to preserve
them and their history.  Well, it turns out that much of that collective
"history" is represented by the manuals and software, especially the
originals, because the artwork on the box and the miscellaneous stuff that
comes inside are all telling of the culture of computing at the time the
software was published and also lend use to various avenues of research
that we may or may not realize right now.  Future generations may glean
something useful out of the packaging that we don't today.  Therefore, it
is important to save.

Also, if you saw my library of software (several walls by now), believe
me when I say you would be in awe.  I doubt you would be willing to admit
that it had no value, either monetary, historical, or cultural.

> hitting someone that lays value on the item.

Well, of course.  My valuations are based on my experience, my knowledge,
and to an extent how important I perceive the object under scrutiny to
be.  Each person's opinion of this will differ, but you also have to take
into account the credibility of the valuer as well as their motivations.

> really be a pure hatred of eBay instead. :-)

Well, I hate eBay for many reasons, mostly having to do with their
policies, but my main gripe is that yes, prices do tend to inflate rather
pompously there.

All in all, I'm a cheap bastard, and I have to be in order to be able to
collect what I do at the scale that I do, and then be able to manage that
collection.  At the risk of sounding pretentious, I am not doing this just
for my own gratification.  This is definitely a whole lot of fun and I
enjoy this hobby immensely, but this collection will live beyond me, and
in order for that to happen, I have to be conservative in various ways.

-- 

Sellam Ismail                                        Vintage Computer Festival
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
International Man of Intrigue and Danger                http://www.vintage.org

 * Old computing resources for business and academia at www.VintageTech.com *

---

From: Patrick Finnegan <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:40:18 2003

> therefore I would value that portion of the lot at $0."

I've managed to get lots of my things for free to near free, but I'm not
going to go claim that they're not worth anything.  Of course, there are
things that are worthless to me that aren't worthless to other people.
What things are worth depends a lot on who's buying them.

> something useful out of the packaging that we don't today.  Therefore, it

I think this is a possible difference between two 'camps' of collectors:"
those who want a collection to display, and are very much interested in
history and authenticity, and those who rather have a machine that they
can hack on, and is functional.  Most collectors probably fall somewhere
between, but tend to gravitate towards one or the other.  I seem to fit
more into the second category; however, that doesn't mean that I could
care less about the history... a number of things in my collection I got
because "they're cool" or "I wished I had one when I was a kid".  But to
me, if the machine doesn't function, it's worthless as an item in my
collection - it's either going to get fixed, junked to repair other
things, or thrown out if it's too much hastle to attempt a repair.  Of
course, the amount of hassle it is also depends on how much I really want
it to work.

Pat
--
Purdue Universtiy ITAP/RCS
Information Technology at Purdue
Research Computing and Storage
http://www-rcd.cc.purdue.edu

---

From: "R. D. Davis" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:40:30 2003

> If it is really new in box, then yeah, I could agree with that price. But 

If it's "new" in this sense, then it's old and never used, which, to
my way of thinking, means that it should be worth less.  Having never
been used, some capacitors may have gone bad and the equipment hasn't
demonstrated that it's survived a burn-in period; the chances of
failure are higher.  Hence, should not a NOS (new old stock) system
be worth less than a system that's been used, but not used enough to
have mechanical and electro-mechanical, components worn, or wearing,
out.

Any thoughts on this?

-- 
Copyright (C) 2002 R. D. Davis The difference between humans & other animals: 
All Rights Reserved            an unnatural belief that we're above Nature & 
[email-masked]  410-744-4900  her other creatures, using dogma to justify such
http://www.rddavis.org         beliefs and to justify much human cruelty.

---

From: "Fred Cisin (XenoSoft)" <[email-masked]>
Date: Wed Mar 5 21:40:48 2003

> > > Got about 3 moving boxes full of assorted software just a few months ago.
.
> > therefore I would value that portion of the lot at $0."
.
> going to go claim that they're not worth anything.  Of course, there are

"Harvey bought an Apple at a yard sale for $5; under the motherboard
were some krugerrands.  Therefore any deal worse than that is no good!"

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:05:01 2003

> since it definitely has historic relevance).

This is especially important if any of the titles are from Infocom.  Those
still fetch a price from those trying to "collect the set".  I would say
that a Zorkmid could be worth more than the computer it comes with.

Yes, there are copies of "The Lost Treasures of Infocom" for a variety of
platforms still kicking around, but the reproduction quality of the
"feelies" is rather poor.  I have a complete set of the regular boxes (for
various CPUs) with a few spares, as well as a couple flavors of TLToI
(Amiga/PeeCee/floppy/CD-ROM), but none of the older, truely masterful
packages (like the mask from "Suspended" or the flying saucer from
"Starcross").

So... in the case of certain titles from certain vendors, don't discount
the value, historic _or_ otherwise, of the software in decent shape.  Yes,
the "bits" are critical to running it; yes, many, many titles can be
found on abandonware sites; no, that's not always all that was in the box.

-ethan

P.S. - I still routinely pick up Infocom boxes for a buck or two, even if
some of the materials are missing - reply cards, catalogs, etc., are
frequently discarded.  If anyone else on the list is a big Infocom nut
like me, write me off-line if you want to swap titles.  I'll see what I
have dups of and for which platform.

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:06:02 2003

> that a Zorkmid could be worth more than the computer it comes with.

Indeed, Infocom games can represent a whole subclass of collecting.

> packages (like the mask from "Suspended" or the flying saucer from

I've got Zork on 8" disk in the original packaging for CP/M systems ;)

> found on abandonware sites; no, that's not always all that was in the box.

Exactly my point.  The maps that came with each Ultima are also an
example.

--

---

From: Bryan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:06:34 2003

> found on abandonware sites; no, that's not always all that was in the box.

One of my favorite types of software packaging is Electronic Art's "record  
albums".  Really cool artwork plus bios and pics of the programmers.
The games are also fun to play too...  ;-)

Cheers,

Bryan

---

From: David Holland <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:08:00 2003

> Exactly my point.  The maps that came with each Ultima are also an

Yup.  Copies still having the "tokens" are even rarer. I'm still looking
for a few of those.. (Lets not even go into Savage Empire/Martian
Dreams)  

(Yes, /me is a Ultima Collector :-) )

David

---

From: Ethan Dicks <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:08:17 2003

--- Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > This is especially important if any of the titles are from Infocom...
>

Yep.
  
> I've got Zork on 8" disk in the original packaging for CP/M systems ;)

Cool!  My oldest Zork is the edition published by Personal Software
for the TRS-80.  It's the only reason I want to have one (well... 
that plus we had a Model III and Model IV at my high school - they
were replaced by Rainbows, but that's a different story).

I didn't buy it (nothing to run it on at the time), but I remember
seeing the RT-11 version of either Starcross or Planetfall (RX01)
on the wall at the Digital Store in Downtown Columbus, c. 1984.

> Exactly my point.  The maps that came with each Ultima are also an

Them, too.  I'm sure there's lots of examples in the gaming world.

-ethan

---

From: Bryan Pope <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:08:33 2003

> (Yes, /me is a Ultima Collector :-) )

Did you pick up "The Ultima Collection".  It had every Ultima made *plus* 
Ultima 0.

Cheers,

Bryan

---

From: Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:09:05 2003

> on the wall at the Digital Store in Downtown Columbus, c. 1984.

I am pretty sure I have one Infocom title for the PDP-11.

--

---

From: ben franchuk <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:10:43 2003

> Exactly my point.  The maps that came with each Ultima are also an

Lets not forget many games had passwords or other useful information
in the manuals too. Ben.

---

From: David Holland <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 13:10:58 2003

Da, I'm fairly certain there was a copy included in U9:Ascension as
well. 

The only things I'm completely missing are Ultima I, Ultima II, Martian
Dreams, and Savage Empire.  (Plus the various tokens for U3->U5)

The only ones I don't collect are the Online's, as they're not single
player. (And very much don't have the same 'feel' as U4->U9 did)

David

---

From: [email-masked] (Tony Duell)
Date: Thu Mar 6 22:18:00 2003

> been used, some capacitors may have gone bad and the equipment hasn't

Why all this fuss about capacitors? In all my time fixing classic 
computers I've replaced maybe 50 capacitors _total_ (and many more 
chips). I've never seen a custom capacitor, and I've never seen major 
damage caused by one. Replacing capacitors is _not_ a problem.

> failure are higher.  Hence, should not a NOS (new old stock) system

On the other hand, provided it's powered up carefully (I am not going to 
re-start that flamefest), it's likely that the machine would be easy to 
repair. Unlike a machine where, say, the PSU regulator has failed when 
the machine is in use, taking out all the chips.

> have mechanical and electro-mechanical, components worn, or wearing,

I wouldn't pay extra for NIB (after all, the first thing I would do to 
the machine is unbox it...) but I wouldn't pay less either. It doesn't 
bother me one way or the other.

-tony

---

From: Cameron Kaiser <[email-masked]>
Date: Thu Mar 6 22:21:01 2003

> The games are also fun to play too...  ;-)

I liked those too. I have Worms? in such an album sitting next to the C128
(it's one of the most off-beat software titles I've ever encountered).

-- 
----------------------------- personal page: http://www.armory.com/~spectre/ --
 Cameron Kaiser, Point Loma Nazarene University * [email-masked]
-- For every credibility gap, there is a gullibility fill. -- R. Clopton ------

---

From: pavl <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri Mar 7 09:01:34 2003

> --- Vintage Computer Festival <[email-masked]> wrote:
I happen to have several of the infocom games for RT-11
(infidel,planetfall,enchanter,deadline,suspended, )
they are fun to take for a spin from time to time

who is familiar with "the warp factor", released only(I'm told) for the
apple II and atari 800+.  Basically a cut-down Star Fleet Battles clone
for the computer, one of my favorites but I can't seem to make an image
or find it for the Atari...

The ultima sets are really cool, I think I have the set (the first is
the re-issue for the apple) , how many were there?

Pavl_